KAMALA SHOULD PREPARE FOR AND PUT PAID TO THE GISH GALLOP
When Vice President Kampala Harris meets with former President Donald Trump on the debate stage tomorrow, she must prepare herself for Trump's favorite debate trick honed over more than a decade, the Gish Gallop.
The Gish Gallop, a term named after Duane Gish, is a debate tactic cha…
KAMALA SHOULD PREPARE FOR AND PUT PAID TO THE GISH GALLOP
When Vice President Kampala Harris meets with former President Donald Trump on the debate stage tomorrow, she must prepare herself for Trump's favorite debate trick honed over more than a decade, the Gish Gallop.
The Gish Gallop, a term named after Duane Gish, is a debate tactic characterized by overwhelming an opponent with a barrage of misleading or irrelevant arguments. The result is that it gets difficult for your opponent to address each point thoroughly.
This technique has been embraced by Trump and his team to the point where his former campaign manager Kellyanne Conway had to create the "Alternative facts" labeling to cover for the lies and irrelevant rants spewed by Trump.
With Trump's ascending to the GOP leadership, the Gish Gallop has transcended formal debate environments and permeated American political discourse, significantly impacting public opinion and discussion. The truth no longer has currency. How eloquently you can spew your lies, misleading information, and irrelevancies is the replacement.
Trump, being the compulsive liar that he is, will not be bothered with truth. He has his talking points and will rattle them out, one after the other.
If you revisit the debate with President Biden, you could see the expressions of incredulity on the face of Biden when Trump would go on one of his gallops. Biden in his descent into dottage, was so taken aback at times, that he seemed to be even doubting himself, as he was blindsided by one lie, followed by an inaccuracy laden Gallop followed by another lie. The sequence persisted throughout the debate, confusing the octegenarian Biden further. He had no counter to it, and as they say, the rest is history.
Kamala must be prepared to sidestep these gallops and allow for the moderators to fact check Trump in real time or simply state that she will not seek to embrace Trump's red herring strategy of alternative facts.
The Gish Gallop has fostered a polarized environment where individuals are more likely to accept arguments that align with their preexisting beliefs without critical examination. This has reinforced ideological divides and contributes to a less informed and more divided electorate.
Kamala cannot depend on Media organizations who have abdicted their role in countering the Gish Gallop by prioritizing in-depth reporting and analysis. The media will continue to focus on sensational headlines or rapid-response content.
Encouraging constructive debate practices, both in formal settings and public forums, should be the media role but Kamala will have to craft her own strategy on the debate stage.
She must sidestep the Trump strategy and counter with her own prosecutorial dismissal of his lies, inaccuracies, dog whistles and race baiting and focus on introducing to the American people a tried and tested leader, who will not shirk in her responsibilities to the American people.
Kamala must demonstrate in no uncertain terms that debaters should be held accountable for the quality of their arguments rather than the quantity.
She must destroy once and for all the Gish Gallop strategy and foster constructive debate based on facts and the vision for a better America. Trump's Gish Gallop strategy must be firmly placed in the sad history of MAGA America where it should die quietly. To do anything else would be to deny America truth and a way forward. “We are not going back”should not only be a platitude, but a vision for a greater America.
Vash, yes, indeed, Trump will say that Harris is lying. She could come back with, and how would you know when you can't distinguish between a lie and the truth since you tell so many lies thinking they are the truth. It could work with the American people as long as she doesn't say it in a snarky way, but as a counselor might.
It will not be a debate, but a chance to show true leadership style. Play your own game; don’t get drawing into playing your opponent’s game. Show grace under pressure, quick thinking to unexpected situations, and how to succinctly call BS when the BS is proffered. Don’t get lost in the details, rather, keep the big picture issues in focus.
Trump will try and intimidate Kamala. She is a prosecutor so she knows how to handle a CONVICTED FELON.
Kamala will CRUSH Trump in the debate if she takes to the stage as if she is prosecuting him because that's what she does best.
Can’t wait to celebrate Kamala's victory wearing this "Kamala removes stubborn orange stains" tee 👇
I watched an Anthony Davis video about debate prep. He has some good suggestions. One is to focus on three most important policies and not try to follow a list of policies. He says in the beginning that Harris and Biden should not agree to debate Trump, who is a convicted felon, in addition to other things. However, I see this as an opportunity for Kamala to show what she is - intelligent, dedicated and a patriot. It will expose Trump’s idiotic rambling.
Even though the media is demanding more policy info from Harris (but not Trump) in reality the media despises policy talk. They also project their boredom with policy onto the rest of us.
Just ask Al Gore or Bill Clinton. After watching one of Clinton’s SOTU speeches I was shocked that all three of the major network anchors panned it as too long and a boring “laundry list” of proposals. Then the overnight polls showed that the public had not only strongly approved of the speech but that more and more people tuned in as the speech went on. I naively thought that the media had learned their lesson and would stop their stupid style-over-substance coverage of politics.
However in 2000 after Gore gave his acceptance speech at the Democratic convention David Broder, the WaPo’s revered “Dean of Washington Journalists” complained that Gore had talked so much about what he would do if elected that Mr. Broder almost fell asleep. A apparently “serious” journalists like Mr. Broder wanted Gore to prove he would be more entertaining and “more fun to have a beer with” than Dubya.
Is it any wonder that our democracy is in such trouble when our top journalists prefer excitement — even from a deranged, demented candidate — over seriousness and substance?
Excellent point and especially so since I think most Americans rely on major networks rather than delving into more sophisticated, fact-based journalism.
I agree with Anthony Davis. It's not a "debate." It's more like a rapid-fire tongue-lashing by a bully gangster. We let Our Joe, a gentleman statesman, face a conniving, decades-long con man, who, as a Russian asset, needs to win this election bigly, or else. So, he rattled Our Joe with the Gish Gallop. We all know what happens to Russian oligarchs who fail in Putin's eyes. I think that both Our Joe and VP Kamala are legitimizing Felon 45's bogus campaign by interacting with the creep. We should all stay well away from the criminal, until he is put under House Arrest, and banned from posting - or soliciting from innocent Americans - on social media.
I completely agree with every word you stated here. Trump is Toxic Waste and the manner in which our Oligarchy owned media is now set up to be their talking heads is absolutely repugnant and as vapid as it gets. They are basically interchangeable and seem to have no awareness of integrity or boundaries ,let alone self respect in the career path they chose. It's always about the Money and ratings now. I can't stomach any of them since this braying ass invaded our living rooms and cell phones.
Whoever decided our Joe should end up on one of the worst ,most biased stations with 2 obviously TRUMP smitten hacks deserves to be fired.
Trump contaminates everything and everyone he comes into contact and bad energy has an insidious way of attaching itself to the unaware or oblivious. I know Kamala can hold her own with just about anyone ,but she is also Fresh Meat to those blood sucking Vampires who run the vast media empire and since she is definitely Not one of them,like Donnie is,I agree she should never or rarely put herself in vulnerable positions like tonight, because it gives Them, not necessarily Trump a way of hooking into her, energetically speaking. We all have energy fields surrounding our bodies and are subject to all sorts of negative And positive effects from other's intentions and thoughts or emotions. Hitler,himself was invested in harnessing this type of power to use as a control mechanism over vast numbers of people. While not quite so diabolically evil and destructive, our Corporate driven media platforms have insatiable appetites and feed off the trauma and drama of destroyed human beings and seem to delight in chaos,rather than promoting the Good of humanity and lifting us all upward through inspiring and courageous people, like our Wonderful President Biden and now Kamala Harris and her new partner Tim Walz.
They will do whatever they can to target them and demonize,undermine, and try to disempower her ,as they did Joe all through his successes years in the White House and his brave campaign. I'm so done with all of them. The last debate debacle only reinforced my awareness that has grown stronger over the past 8 years that something Rotten is growing within our news outlets and media platforms and the stench makes me sick in my very soul. Kamala needs to Protect her energy and surround herself with the Best of the Best as the unique and First female American President in our history. Why expose herself to this circus performer that is Their darling? There is nothing to prove and nothing to gain by arguing with an idiot that can't even complete whole sentences just to feed those political and media vampires.
I will most likely, but hesitantly watch this so called debate and hope for her best outcome, but I hope it's the last time she lowers herself to stand on a stage next to an adjudicated rapist, lying, psychotic Felon, that is somehow still playing golf,creating more distractions,and seeking release from a prison sentence by once again being installed in our White House. He is Thee worst thing that ever happened to our country. God forbid it happens a second time. We will not survive it.
I agree with you completely! Our Joe, obviously a pious man, became unnerved at the evil emanating from the gangster. I hope our VP is psychologically prepared for the exposure to that creeping crud!
When I prep people I always say do NOT play defense. On cross, you only know three answers: yes, no and and I don't fully recall or don't recall. On direct, sing like a canary that just ate sesame seeds.
Vash, one thing I am concerned about is that Trump might be wearing an earpiece through which his handlers may be providing information to him, not that he will listen to it too much, but that they will try to get him back on track or give him a snarky comment to use in a tense situation. Trumpers and Trumpettes like bullies and when Trump does something like that, they will be so excited they won't know what to do.
Do you remember the suspicion that Dubya had done that in a debate with Kerry? There were photos of him from behind that clearly showed a bulge under his jacket. The mainstream “liberal” media didn’t ignore the story and first but then it was dropped like a hot potato.
I used to get really annoyed at the woman I call Kack'el Conway. No matter what was asked she would never respond to the question. I looked up her tactic. It's "deflect, pivot, spin" then spin some more. Dan Rather said Kack'el "could talk the legs off a table."
What worries me is that, without the mics muted, she will spend her entire speaking time saying, "Excuse me, I'm speaking." The Gish Gallop: never let your opponent get a single point across. I wish I felt as confident about her ability to defeat him, but we've seen him in action - like a paranoid schizophrenic on a hallucinogenic rant, his insanity dominates. And as those in the industry know, you can't reason with the hallucinations.
Just laugh at him and look into the camera with an overstated theatrical nodding of the head toward the Orange Ogre suggesting that he is crazy. It's called res gestae which in law loosely translates speaking gesture. There is nothing for him to respond to and he will know that he has been insulted and he will be put to the task of trying to describe what she did to him. I've done and it drives the person its done to nuts.
I take comfort from the fact that after Trump’s debate with Biden the polls showed that people were more disturbed by Trump’s lying than by Biden’s stumbles. Also Biden’s poll numbers hadn’t dropped that much after the debate. Unfortunately that was not the story our mainstream “liberal” media wanted to tell. The media continued hounding Biden — but not Trump — and that led to further drops in his poll number.
The media is proud that they succeeded in forcing Biden out. It really worries me that journalists will now think they have the right to do that to other candidates they don’t like. In fact I am convinced that the media was a big factor in Gore’s loss to Bush. They gleefully spread Karl Rove’s slander that Gore had claimed to have invented the internet even though journalists knew it was a lie. In fact I once heard Chris Matthews mock Gore for making that claim, than pause and admit he knew Gore had never said it. But that didn’t stop Matthews from continuing to repeat that lie because it was too much fun. Fun was clearly what mattered to our mainstream political journalists. They made no secret of the fact that they thought Bush was the better candidate because he would be “more fun to have a beer with”. It doesn’t get any more idiotic than that but there was a lot journalistic idiocy during that campaign.
Theodora, alas, our founders didn't give the press freedom to "amuse themselves," but they did anyway, and always have. They hoped, though that some reality would shine through and the people would pay attention enough to see which papers were honest, then support them. Our current TV and internet media are more about appearance and style than honest reporting. That is sad because it was not always that way. We need some reporters who are known for their complete integrity so people can trust them, at least most of the time. I listen to several different news sources and find none of them worthy of my full attention. They cover disasters pretty well, but when it comes to politics, they can't seem to let go of their need to "balance" everything even though not everything balances. Republicans at all levels for the past few decades have mostly been less than competent, unkind to ordinary Americans while smiling and claiming to be their friends, and more or rather less. And, the internet is a crazy place where even Russians and Chinese influencers can spew their garbage with hardly a peep in opposition. There was a crew recently caught who are now claiming they didn't know what they were spouting was Russian propaganda. They didn't care that it was a pack of lies and deliberate misinformation, but now don't want to be blamed for letting Russia use them. What a crock! We the People do need to demand better.
Ignoring him, as if he doesn’t exist is to get his “goat”, because he can’t handle ignored. A big, big trigger for his wounded ego. With his Mike muted, no way to interrupt her, verbally. He may start squirming, or try the moving out from behind his podium, like he stalked Hillary—— if he does that, she may need to Address that, by Commandingly Stand her Ground: Announce what he is Doing-like an Announcer, Request a Secret Server to remove him to his own space, and stop the debate until he is returned to his space. LOL.
If he keeps doing it, he might be guarded like a felon- that he is. Not a good look! Needing to be physically be Controlled, under guard. She calling the shots, Her In Control. He’d look like a bad boy, kindergartner. Jailbird.
Perfect! Totally agree and I have that t-shirt! Already told hubby that Tuesday night is pizza night! Kamala will have the pride and dignity and intelligence to outplay his stupid old debate games. We can't wait to watch.
I’m sorry Kamala has chosen to “debate”. Trump doesn’t have the first idea of what a debate really is. He will just open the floodgates of meaninglessness. Even a well-placed barb from Ms. Harris will not faze him—he is so disconnected from his feelings.
Kamala Harris has debated in a court of law, so she does know how to debate against Con-Old. She is also studding his past debates, so she will know how he debates, giving her an edge against the convict, that she has put some like him in prison.
Inotherwords, Kamala is EDUCATED, EXPERIENCED,& READY TO take on the likes of DJT,just another in MANY she has prosecuted in the past! SHE KNOWS his TYPE! EVERY woman in American KNOWS what THAT means!
I hope you are right. Trump might not be her first "volume liar," but he is freaking exhausting as he revs up his lying engine and starts to blow! I wish her well. He's a menace to the nation.
Do you know what the dynamics of an argument are? Aggressor: Rages. Recipient: Smiles. Aggressor: Tries again. Recipient: Cocks her head precociously and smirks and so on. It takes two for the heat of an argument to escalate. He's would-be escalating solo and getting nothing to feed off of to return fire. It leaves the Aggressor looking like a buffoon and fool.
Kamala Harris is ready to battle him, just seen in the evening news, she will be ready for his lies, and she plans on confronting him on them lies. It will be a good debate, I have my DVR set to record it already.
I inadvertantly friended a Trumper on FB shortly before the 2015 debate with Clinton. I watched, she watched. I thought Clinton was excellent (excepting her negative comment about his "awful" followers"). My "friend", on the other hand, basically said the Donald tromped all over Clinton was was the clear winner by a mile. So Will Harris' debating skills really have an impact on those who've drunk the Koolaid?
No I doubt it. But she’s not talking to those people. Shd will be talking up those people who still claim they don’t know which candidate they believe or trust (?????). She needs to present herself as a strong and leader and not focus too much on his BS which we all know there will be plenty of or talk too much about policy. She needs to present a vastly coherent and stable alternative to his insanity. Don’t get dragged down into his sludge.
Your comment is spot-on. Many of the persuadable potential voters might not even tune into the event live, but rather follow up with streaming services like YouTube that will likely provide access to short snips of the event that are particularly impactful. As long as they are persuaded to vote for Harris I don't mind any mechanism to convince them to vote for sane leadership.
Naturally. If you can believe that a person who has a total of 90 charges pending in 4 separate jurisdictions is being persecuted, then, you will believe anything. I don't know the name of the rule but years ago someone told me that in an array of controversies involving different issues when there is one constant, the problem is the constant.
Her only goal is to make him look like the buffoon that he is and show how unfit he is to be POTUS. He won't disappoint. He can help himself. He always was unqualified and unfit but now he is in significant mental decline. I read that his phonemic paraphasia (those fading/mauled words) is a medical sign of dementia. His dad suffered from dementia.
And if she had chosen not to "debate him"? Where do you think that would have led? She had no choice. She has to be seen knowing how to corral an all out liar, thief, adjudicated rapist, scammer, and misogynist. She can only do that face to face. What needs to be done, is, when he starts to speak when during her time? Turn on his mic so every one can hear what calumnious garbage he is muttering to throw her off track, just like he did to Pres. Biden. Biden was the only one hearing the crap. Why do you think he couldn't respond? And the pillars of salt aka moderators? I hope the ogre's team sent them flowers and champagne to thank them for playing the orange turd's game.
This was never going to be a debate. A cogent, formal debate involves substance. Since he has none and simply bellows insults and what amounts to white noise, it was always going to be a food fight. She just has to remain calm which in and of itself will taunt him.
He (Trump) is very close to his emotions right now, as they are at the surface. He is lashing out in frustration, acting the entitled white male, insulting everyone he possibly can. Trump has no rein on his appetites or his bile. His negativity is his appeal to the detached-from-reality followers and/or Fox News viewers. He is going to make a fool of himself and his deplorable base will say, Nothing to see here, as they lead him back to a can of Ensure.
Thin-skinned Don Old is fully capable of feeling humiliation and embarrassment. He especially hates being called "a baby." His motor mouth usual overpowers the opponent. However, KH is not your standard opponent. She was a prosecutor and senator from a state with the 6th largest economy in the world. He will pull out his stale, old tricks. Problem is they won't faze her which is not the standard reaction he's trying to provoke. Poor Don Old. The one-trick, ochre pony has met his match. If he does the stalking trick a la HRC, I hope she suddenly swings around and says "Boo" while stepping toward him. My bad...yes, I am.
Totally agree! It's a shame debate and lowers her status by catering to the press and playing this corrupt old game that got even worse when Trump took control over the media lackeys. I pray she rises above the fray and exposes this deplorable to the world by inciting his ugly racist animal nature
The Moderators have thus far failed to rein-in DJT... Megan Kelly made a notable attempt... I have watched many DJT Interviews... I marvel at his ability to slither away from any fact-checking... I hope that Kamala earns a widely perceived Victory in this Debate...
Kamala will wipe the floor with DJT! Will the moderators"acknowledge" that? YES! I believe thay will be bipartisan in their reporting. BUT, will they be unAmerican by not questioning the "experts" assessments of how Trump's policies will actually affect the economy. WHY not TRUTH?
President Biden is an amazing leader for America. I love that man. I am so grateful he is here, capably guiding us and helping us feel safe, sound, and secure after that four nightmare years we had to endure from Trump. Maybe some have tried to forget how ugly Trump's reign was, but I remember. I remember sleepless nights, feeling on edge, literally praying that America and her democracy would survive while enduring the Orange Beast's brutal viciousness. Trump feels like he wants to be Hitler 2.0
It is distressing to hear when people attack Biden for being older when Trump is nearly the same age. Biden is intelligent, calm, and sensible. Biden is doing everything right for America. Trump is a senseless, moronic bully. Trump openly said, "I don't care about you." He doesn't! Trump only cares about his big, bloated ego and his psycho intentions and his malicious greed and tries to crush anyone who attempts to stop him. It is up to us to stop him. You and me. We. We must stop Trump from looming his dark shadow over America ever again by using our power to VOTE.
It feels like a betrayal when people snidely look down on Biden after all of his incredible accomplishments these past four years. He's helped–and is still helping–America in countless ways including improving the economy, providing more jobs, protecting our health care, and giving us back our status with other countries. Trump tried to rob us of all of these things. Have you so quickly forgotten?
Just as Mary very effectively points out here, Toxic Trump endlessly spews venom and nonsense and crazy, making zero sense. Why on earth news media keeps letting this go is beyond belief. It is unacceptable. I'm grateful for Mary Trump's backbone and courage in her fight to bring Don-OLD Trump down and help make sure he stays down.
During the debate with President Biden, who is still running America beautifully, Trump appeared to want to derail Biden by drawing him into fighting Trump's smelly blasts of hot air. Where were the moderators during all of this? Why weren't they doing their job to moderate the madness of Trump?
Biden was not "confused." He clearly saw through Trump's baloney and simply refused to let the Orange Creep get under his skin. Biden did not "doubt himself" for one moment. Biden seemed to realize attempting to "counter" the stinking wind blown out by Trump would only be a distraction, as Trump intended. In fact, Biden stayed focused and correctly stuck to the reason he was there–making his important policy points known.
Now, no one can really say what Biden was feeling, but it felt like Biden tried to rise above Trump's inane "Gish Gallop" and essentially ignore it, because he and everyone else has heard it all before, ad nauseam. Of course Biden seemed "taken aback." Any human being with moral values feels taken aback by the onslaught of Trump's mad ramblings. Yes, Biden made some expressions of incredulity, just like anyone would who had a brain cell listening to the putrid garbage The Orange Stain vomits out unceasingly.
Trump is almost an octogenarian, so he has no "age" excuse. Trump is the one "descending into dotage." Trump is demented. Trump is insane. Trump is crazy. Biden is brilliant, highly capable, and continues doing a proven job of excellence for America. Did Biden have a bad night due to just coming off of a bad cold and not feeling his best during the debate? It would appear so, but he was determined to rise above the Orange Slime's disgusting diatribe and stick to the business at hand.
If Biden were continuing to run for a second term, I would gladly vote for him again. But he's seemed to decide that passing the torch to Kamala, for whom I will also gladly vote, was his best political move. He reminds me of President George Washington in his selflessness. This was a noble sacrifice for Biden. It breaks my heart that he felt he had to make such a sacrifice, but I honor him for it. I believe in President Joe Biden. I believe in Kamala Harris. We've already bleached the Orange Stain out of the White House. We can prevent that from ever happening again. We must protect America from further t-RUMP trauma together by making very sure we VOTE.
I am totally with you about Biden. I think very highly of him as a leader and a person. I hated the way his party trashed him and forced him to withdraw from the race. Shame on them.
If Kamala was running in a primary she would not have got my vote. However, now she is the alternative to Trump, so I will vote for her.
I still am cautious about the results of this election. It could go either way because we have the electoral college. This is not democracy but this is the system we are locked into. Never underestimate the bias of American voters against women and particularly Women of color.
Democrats needed to support Biden but they didn’t. They created very bad Karma when they publicly humiliated him, after he had achieved so much. It could work against them but I don’t know when or in what way. For the sake of the country I hope that Harris can beat Trump in a landslide this November. We cannot afford to have Trump and Vance at the top.
Biden showed how great and egoless he is by fully supporting his replacement. He never lost his smile in adversity. I left the Democratic Party after the democrats rejected him for being old and saying he could not win. I believe he could have won but now I will vote for Kamala.
WOW Thank you this is what I have been thinking and also wondering why more of us have not commented like you have. So now ou have embolden me to do so. Yes we are so so lucky that Biden is currently our president and history will show how well he got us all ut of the disaster TRUMP left us in Guess no one is remembering how many died and how many got so ill and that I do not recall that TRUMP had a plan to make sure we all had FREE access to the shots and medical assistance- a plan for Covid tests to be distributed for free nor arrogating for funds for those out of work- keeping tenants and homeowners from from being evicted The economy would have been in the dumpsters and TRUMP and his fang of followers in and his 1 percent friends would have bought u all the foreclosures and taken advantage of what would have been a disastrous economy. The entire world suffered high inflation NOT brought on by Bidens plans to assist Americans in need during COVID while TRUMPs tax breaks were assisting the 1% all during COVID were never paid for and inflationary. Rarely other thna on MSNBC do we hear any fact checks on how Biden got us out of TRUMPS disastrous economy and bad choices-- and today no other countries in the world have achieved what Biden has done for the US economy- and for the US citizens-Chris Hayes on MSNBC for a while was doing the are you better now than 4 years ago days- during the TRUMPS years - and YES WE ARE BETTER off now- why is the Press giving TRUMP a free ride on all his terrible choices he made during his term. His term was not the best accomplishment of all other Presidents etc etc but few fact check this. The Press has basically let Biden down (alos others) by NOT reminding US citizens of what Biden has done for the US - for our place in the world- that is so well respected by other world leaders NOT looked down upon as TRUMP says. i am so angry and disappointed with most of the press these days for what they have done to ignore all the positivity that Biden has accomplished for us. Morning Joe spent times pointing out what all the accomplishments the Biden term has accomplished and should be appreciated for it. He says He knew Harris would be a great VP and also now a great President so now Harris MUST get elected and carry on his vision and add to it hers and so we get back to normalcy and WOMENS RIGHTS to pregnancy heath care and CHOICE CAN BE RESTORED and TRUMP and his MAGA crowd will be defeated by a super large vote of none confidence ! PS I was a former Republican till Bill Clinton came on the scene. I will remain now for always a Democrat. Yes MARY TRUMP is a treasure for us too!
It seems Biden keeps getting us Out of messes created by someone else. You summarized them all I think. One thing that occurred to me was that after Biden’s debate in 2024, most in the media wrote him off. I am grateful to Lawrence ODonnell and Mary Trump for believing in him while his own party did not. The Democratic Party believed the media but not their own President who just two days later gave two impressive performances. One was about foreign policy and he displayed how well he could think. It was not enough for Pelosi and her followers (I lost all respect for her). It put the party in a tough situation- what to do at the convention? They were talking about bringing their favorite governors from different states to run against Biden - at the convention! Are these people nuts?
Biden recognized that a fragmented party cannot win. Democrats needed to be united to beat Trump. He sacrificed his own ambitions to bring these democrats together. He immediately endorsed Harris, who was the logical choice under the circumstances. Everyone fell in line with endorsements. There was peace. The convention did not become a circus . Instead there was strong support for Biden’s replacement. His wisdom is deep and his ego does not get in the way of achieving the bigger purpose.
I believe that he could have beaten Trump again but only if the party had united behind him. As Lawrence said there are examples of polls being wrong in the past elections. Nobody was willing to calm down. They were in panic mode after the debate. Democrats, donors, may be some celebrities believed that Biden could not win. They trashed him - a sitting President who never committed a crime. The party had become a mess. Republicans were thinking they had the election in the bag. It was the worst time.
Biden’s greatness lies in Not holding it against the scared children in the party. He was the adult. He continued to guide and help the party. In my opinion he is the best President we had in my lifetime. He is so under appreciated! It is very disappointing. Democrats lost the incumbent advantage and the White male advantage when they replaced Biden. Regardless, we need to win the WH, no matter who the Democratic nominee is. So I am going to start writing postcards. I am going on a cruise soon but I will take some postcards with me. I am sure I can write 5-10 per day while on vacation.
I agree Joe has been a phenomenal President, but I also think with we owe a debt of gratitude to whoever got through to him to bow out. The writing was on the wall with the poll numbers. People were not
getting past the idea that he’s too old for four more years, and I don’t think that’s wrong. The job is mentally AND physically demanding and he showed at the debate that he’s lost some steps. I didn’t think it was as bad as the narrative, I watched it after the fact, but it reenforced the country’s reluctance to support a visibly old man to the highest office. He needed a really solid performance to overcome people’s concerns, he delivered far below that. His poll numbers were already underwater and that debate was not going to allow any room for improvement. Say what you want about Nancy, but she knows how to count and she knew there was no way for Biden to get there and the stakes are too high. Our only hope was Biden doing what he did. Trump was headed for a landslide, as inexplicable as that is.
Now the contrast of Don-Old, an angry, lying, hateful, selfish, and self-serving criminal, against a young, kind, cares about everyone, smart, competent leader should help to turn the tide when they are side by side. It’s still incomprehensible how close it is. I loath blind partisanship!
Sorry but I disagree. Biden is a fighter. He would have fought through it and could have won but only if his party had not crumbled against the media onslaught. The media are always against the democrats and one bad performance was the dysentery needed to create an explosion.
The democrats lost two major advantages by Biden’s withdrawal. Incumbency (one of Lichtman’s 13 keys) and white Beale advantage. No matter how excited people feel about Kamala, when it comes to actual voting, some if them could balk. Never underestimate the racism and sexism in the USA. It is deeply ingrained. Otherwise we would not have seen such a close race between Harris and Trump. It could go either way.
About polls, Lawrence had good examples from the past that showed that polls could be wrong, and there was plenty of time left for Biden to recover.
I believe the media wanted to get rid of him because he had the potential to beat Trump. Replacing a nominee this late makes a party lose. One bad performance by Biden was amplified by the media 1000 times. Trump keeps talking nonsense and shows signs of dementia but we don’t hear a blip about it from the media.
The media and the billionaires who own them are controlling our elections and our political system. Had Biden not had the farsight, this could have been a tragic situation for the democrats. If they lose this election it is on the Dems And the republicans. I am hoping that somehow Trump loses and cannot recover even with This SCOTUS.
The best thing would have been democrats supporting their incumbent President and build a fortress around him (not literally), just like the republicans did for Trump everytime he got in trouble. That’s why they are in a position to win this election, with a convicted felon as their nominee.
Sorry, there is just no concrete support for this view. There was a high percentage of double haters and that has virtually disappeared. RFK had nearly 10% support, that eroded and he dropped out. Harris wiped out all of Biden’s polling deficits and has largely pulled Biden’s coalition back together which was crumbling. She’s had surges in new voter registrations, volunteers, and record donations, especially among first time donors. That money and volunteer is allowing organizing deeper in new areas to drive votes to erode DJT support in crucial areas of battlegrounds on top of the critical work in these states. She is galvanizing women and weaponizing the abortion issue which Biden was weak on. She can run on the great parts of his agenda but pivot on the areas he has perceived weakness such as the economy and immigration. People are excited to vote for her, this is far more motivating than having to vote for someone when you don’t want to vote for either one.
It is wishful thinking given how low Biden’s approval ratings were and how many people believed we were on the wrong track to think he could magically overcome the high negatives and the deep concern over his age and fitness that he only entrenched after that performance. Sorry, those are just data driven facts.
As I descend into my "dottage"!....it is so refreshing and rejuvenating!? to read such an intelligent discourse. Albeit I have chosen to be a Permanent Resident (from Scotland) for 35 years and can not vote (even though all taxes are paid diligently), my 3 children will happily hold the banner high for Kamala. Without her holding together USA....the WORLD will disintegrate under The Driveling Idiot.
I'm dottage'ing right there with you and I feel renewed. I have hope and I like watching the wingnuts' Scylla and Charybdis, twin Greek mythology monsters keep digging. The first rule of "holes" is quit digging.
Bad Faith and Good Faith are two different languages. Donald only speaks in Bad Faith. It’s a terrific language! You get to say lies and stupid stuff without shame or scruples. It’s a demonstration of power over the Good Faith people. The burden of combating the lies falls on the Good Faith people, including the Good Faith press. If they stay silent the Liar wins!
A superb analysis, Frederick. Thank you. 'The truth no longer has currency' is an expression of the current state of US politics for the ages. This will define the Trump years going forward for centuries as will his ability to create a cult impervious to truth or reason comprised of roughly 40% of the population despite his substantial character flaws and criminal behaviour. It's a long road that doesn't have a garbage can at the end of it. Keep the faith. I'm 76 years old. I'm determined to live long enough to see the end of that road.
Dump wouldn't know what truth was if he fell out of bed on it. Christian? Only if spelled with a "K" and followed by a couple more after that. The "Chosen One?" Chosen one what?
Gish gallop worked on Biden mainly because he is a stutter and gish gallop overloads the brain especially in stutters and locks it up so to speak. Mel tillis was a stutter why he sang I believe. (beautiful voice too) he won't be as lucky with Kamala.
I think they overloaded him with detailed information which was unnecessary to debate Trump. That, combined with his jet lag and his cold created a perfect storm.
The most effective tool for dealing with the gish gallop is to go meta. Don't respond to any of it. Instead reply with something like,
"Donald, you were asked a yes or no question. Are you even capable of answering a simple question with a 'yes' or 'no'? People haven't taken time out of their lives to watch some old man blather nonsense instead of answering the question. I bet the listeners would like to know: is it 'yes' or 'no'?"
And, since they're going to have hot mics, as an aside somewhere during the night, she should break the positive "weave" spin they're putting on his inability to speak coherently on any topic:
"You know, he calls the way he follows his train of thought wherever it wanders, 'weaving.'
"Well, I gotta tell ya, when I see a train weaving like that, I know my safety and that of everyone else depends on staying as far away as possible. "
My method (above) would be to ask him what his third question was in order to stymie him bc he would have no idea what he said bc he machine guns bullshit. I would love to seen him stunned into silence however briefly. Cheesy Smile.
I have long detested Trump’s ability to completely derail what should be an intelligent two-way conversation and also why nobody calls it out for what it is! Thank you so much for telling us about the Gish Gallop. Utterly fascinating. Living in England, I so hope Trump is roundly defeated in November!
I assume she has been preparing for this, & that she has a good strategy to counteract this. She could pick out a couple things he said in each stream of lies to refute & mention that all the rest he said are lies, too, but that she doesn't have the time to rebut every single one. But I assume in her career as a prosecutor she has had quite a bit of practice in countering witnesses' lies, so I hope this will be child's play for her.
But we never can be sure, even with adequate preparation, how well someone will fare in a debate ahead of time. Biden had plenty of preparation, but surprisingly not for streams of lies for which Trump is well-known, & his mental capacity at the debate was obviously not in tip top shape, which can happen to anyone.
How effective would it be to hear Candidate Kamala Harris start her turn, after Deranged Donnie’s shut off his Mike, at the “Debate,” to state. Another Incoherent Galloping Gish of gibberish. Unintelligible nonsense. Then smile. Not even having looked at him. She proceeds to Intelligently Discuss her issues, or what ever she would say had he spoke. Ignore him, as if he’s totally absent. Because, he actually is-totally brainless. His is in fact empty-absent. That will trigger him, hugely!
Thanks so much for sharing the formalized term for it. The technique is so obvious so it makes sense it would have a name. It's hard to beleive Biden's handlers didn't antcipate this and prepare him for that certainty! THEY are the ones who blew it.
Yes, that's exactly the ploy that Biden fell for, hook line, and sinker, and it obviously confused the hell out of him. Hard to believe his handlers didn't see that coming and prep him, accordingly. Very sad.
KAMALA SHOULD PREPARE FOR AND PUT PAID TO THE GISH GALLOP
When Vice President Kampala Harris meets with former President Donald Trump on the debate stage tomorrow, she must prepare herself for Trump's favorite debate trick honed over more than a decade, the Gish Gallop.
The Gish Gallop, a term named after Duane Gish, is a debate tactic characterized by overwhelming an opponent with a barrage of misleading or irrelevant arguments. The result is that it gets difficult for your opponent to address each point thoroughly.
This technique has been embraced by Trump and his team to the point where his former campaign manager Kellyanne Conway had to create the "Alternative facts" labeling to cover for the lies and irrelevant rants spewed by Trump.
With Trump's ascending to the GOP leadership, the Gish Gallop has transcended formal debate environments and permeated American political discourse, significantly impacting public opinion and discussion. The truth no longer has currency. How eloquently you can spew your lies, misleading information, and irrelevancies is the replacement.
Trump, being the compulsive liar that he is, will not be bothered with truth. He has his talking points and will rattle them out, one after the other.
If you revisit the debate with President Biden, you could see the expressions of incredulity on the face of Biden when Trump would go on one of his gallops. Biden in his descent into dottage, was so taken aback at times, that he seemed to be even doubting himself, as he was blindsided by one lie, followed by an inaccuracy laden Gallop followed by another lie. The sequence persisted throughout the debate, confusing the octegenarian Biden further. He had no counter to it, and as they say, the rest is history.
Kamala must be prepared to sidestep these gallops and allow for the moderators to fact check Trump in real time or simply state that she will not seek to embrace Trump's red herring strategy of alternative facts.
The Gish Gallop has fostered a polarized environment where individuals are more likely to accept arguments that align with their preexisting beliefs without critical examination. This has reinforced ideological divides and contributes to a less informed and more divided electorate.
Kamala cannot depend on Media organizations who have abdicted their role in countering the Gish Gallop by prioritizing in-depth reporting and analysis. The media will continue to focus on sensational headlines or rapid-response content.
Encouraging constructive debate practices, both in formal settings and public forums, should be the media role but Kamala will have to craft her own strategy on the debate stage.
She must sidestep the Trump strategy and counter with her own prosecutorial dismissal of his lies, inaccuracies, dog whistles and race baiting and focus on introducing to the American people a tried and tested leader, who will not shirk in her responsibilities to the American people.
Kamala must demonstrate in no uncertain terms that debaters should be held accountable for the quality of their arguments rather than the quantity.
She must destroy once and for all the Gish Gallop strategy and foster constructive debate based on facts and the vision for a better America. Trump's Gish Gallop strategy must be firmly placed in the sad history of MAGA America where it should die quietly. To do anything else would be to deny America truth and a way forward. “We are not going back”should not only be a platitude, but a vision for a greater America.
I think Kamala will be well prepared for the galloping donkey she will be debating. I’m looking forward to her prosecution of the felon.
Why "galloping donkey"? I like Stormy Daniel's nickname for him: "Orange Turd."
As in Gish Gallop . . .
I thought it was "Two Inches."
"Donkey" is an euphemism for a less polite and shorter word.
Hahaha, not the way I spell it. Or as it refers to the morbidly obese former somebody, to which I direct my vitriol. And it doesn't end in "hat."
When dealing with the Orange Cloaca being polite is no longer a virtue. Virtue does not exist in his universe.
The word "ass" appears in the Bible and the Quran.
I can almost predict what Donald will say - “She is lying”
Right after he uses his "go to" phrase: "You are a nasty women." Said by Diaper Don Old.
Vash, yes, indeed, Trump will say that Harris is lying. She could come back with, and how would you know when you can't distinguish between a lie and the truth since you tell so many lies thinking they are the truth. It could work with the American people as long as she doesn't say it in a snarky way, but as a counselor might.
She will be a matador.
From your lips to the world's ears! TY for defining "Gish Gallop". I have hope for Kamala's ability to pin turd down despite his firestorm of 💩.
The donkey is the mascot for the Democratic party. And Trump's is too old and fat to gallop.
It will not be a debate, but a chance to show true leadership style. Play your own game; don’t get drawing into playing your opponent’s game. Show grace under pressure, quick thinking to unexpected situations, and how to succinctly call BS when the BS is proffered. Don’t get lost in the details, rather, keep the big picture issues in focus.
Trump will try and intimidate Kamala. She is a prosecutor so she knows how to handle a CONVICTED FELON.
Kamala will CRUSH Trump in the debate if she takes to the stage as if she is prosecuting him because that's what she does best.
Can’t wait to celebrate Kamala's victory wearing this "Kamala removes stubborn orange stains" tee 👇
https://libtees-2.creator-spring.com/listing/votek
I watched an Anthony Davis video about debate prep. He has some good suggestions. One is to focus on three most important policies and not try to follow a list of policies. He says in the beginning that Harris and Biden should not agree to debate Trump, who is a convicted felon, in addition to other things. However, I see this as an opportunity for Kamala to show what she is - intelligent, dedicated and a patriot. It will expose Trump’s idiotic rambling.
Even though the media is demanding more policy info from Harris (but not Trump) in reality the media despises policy talk. They also project their boredom with policy onto the rest of us.
Just ask Al Gore or Bill Clinton. After watching one of Clinton’s SOTU speeches I was shocked that all three of the major network anchors panned it as too long and a boring “laundry list” of proposals. Then the overnight polls showed that the public had not only strongly approved of the speech but that more and more people tuned in as the speech went on. I naively thought that the media had learned their lesson and would stop their stupid style-over-substance coverage of politics.
However in 2000 after Gore gave his acceptance speech at the Democratic convention David Broder, the WaPo’s revered “Dean of Washington Journalists” complained that Gore had talked so much about what he would do if elected that Mr. Broder almost fell asleep. A apparently “serious” journalists like Mr. Broder wanted Gore to prove he would be more entertaining and “more fun to have a beer with” than Dubya.
Is it any wonder that our democracy is in such trouble when our top journalists prefer excitement — even from a deranged, demented candidate — over seriousness and substance?
Excellent point and especially so since I think most Americans rely on major networks rather than delving into more sophisticated, fact-based journalism.
I agree with Anthony Davis. It's not a "debate." It's more like a rapid-fire tongue-lashing by a bully gangster. We let Our Joe, a gentleman statesman, face a conniving, decades-long con man, who, as a Russian asset, needs to win this election bigly, or else. So, he rattled Our Joe with the Gish Gallop. We all know what happens to Russian oligarchs who fail in Putin's eyes. I think that both Our Joe and VP Kamala are legitimizing Felon 45's bogus campaign by interacting with the creep. We should all stay well away from the criminal, until he is put under House Arrest, and banned from posting - or soliciting from innocent Americans - on social media.
I completely agree with every word you stated here. Trump is Toxic Waste and the manner in which our Oligarchy owned media is now set up to be their talking heads is absolutely repugnant and as vapid as it gets. They are basically interchangeable and seem to have no awareness of integrity or boundaries ,let alone self respect in the career path they chose. It's always about the Money and ratings now. I can't stomach any of them since this braying ass invaded our living rooms and cell phones.
Whoever decided our Joe should end up on one of the worst ,most biased stations with 2 obviously TRUMP smitten hacks deserves to be fired.
Trump contaminates everything and everyone he comes into contact and bad energy has an insidious way of attaching itself to the unaware or oblivious. I know Kamala can hold her own with just about anyone ,but she is also Fresh Meat to those blood sucking Vampires who run the vast media empire and since she is definitely Not one of them,like Donnie is,I agree she should never or rarely put herself in vulnerable positions like tonight, because it gives Them, not necessarily Trump a way of hooking into her, energetically speaking. We all have energy fields surrounding our bodies and are subject to all sorts of negative And positive effects from other's intentions and thoughts or emotions. Hitler,himself was invested in harnessing this type of power to use as a control mechanism over vast numbers of people. While not quite so diabolically evil and destructive, our Corporate driven media platforms have insatiable appetites and feed off the trauma and drama of destroyed human beings and seem to delight in chaos,rather than promoting the Good of humanity and lifting us all upward through inspiring and courageous people, like our Wonderful President Biden and now Kamala Harris and her new partner Tim Walz.
They will do whatever they can to target them and demonize,undermine, and try to disempower her ,as they did Joe all through his successes years in the White House and his brave campaign. I'm so done with all of them. The last debate debacle only reinforced my awareness that has grown stronger over the past 8 years that something Rotten is growing within our news outlets and media platforms and the stench makes me sick in my very soul. Kamala needs to Protect her energy and surround herself with the Best of the Best as the unique and First female American President in our history. Why expose herself to this circus performer that is Their darling? There is nothing to prove and nothing to gain by arguing with an idiot that can't even complete whole sentences just to feed those political and media vampires.
I will most likely, but hesitantly watch this so called debate and hope for her best outcome, but I hope it's the last time she lowers herself to stand on a stage next to an adjudicated rapist, lying, psychotic Felon, that is somehow still playing golf,creating more distractions,and seeking release from a prison sentence by once again being installed in our White House. He is Thee worst thing that ever happened to our country. God forbid it happens a second time. We will not survive it.
I agree with you completely! Our Joe, obviously a pious man, became unnerved at the evil emanating from the gangster. I hope our VP is psychologically prepared for the exposure to that creeping crud!
When I prep people I always say do NOT play defense. On cross, you only know three answers: yes, no and and I don't fully recall or don't recall. On direct, sing like a canary that just ate sesame seeds.
Vash, one thing I am concerned about is that Trump might be wearing an earpiece through which his handlers may be providing information to him, not that he will listen to it too much, but that they will try to get him back on track or give him a snarky comment to use in a tense situation. Trumpers and Trumpettes like bullies and when Trump does something like that, they will be so excited they won't know what to do.
We know that if there's any chance of cheating, Trump will be on it, because nobody cheats better than Trump.
Do you remember the suspicion that Dubya had done that in a debate with Kerry? There were photos of him from behind that clearly showed a bulge under his jacket. The mainstream “liberal” media didn’t ignore the story and first but then it was dropped like a hot potato.
https://fair.org/extra/the-emperors-new-hump/
I love to see him prosecuted!!!!!!
I want to see him in prison for the crimes he has been convicted for.
I used to get really annoyed at the woman I call Kack'el Conway. No matter what was asked she would never respond to the question. I looked up her tactic. It's "deflect, pivot, spin" then spin some more. Dan Rather said Kack'el "could talk the legs off a table."
What worries me is that, without the mics muted, she will spend her entire speaking time saying, "Excuse me, I'm speaking." The Gish Gallop: never let your opponent get a single point across. I wish I felt as confident about her ability to defeat him, but we've seen him in action - like a paranoid schizophrenic on a hallucinogenic rant, his insanity dominates. And as those in the industry know, you can't reason with the hallucinations.
Just laugh at him and look into the camera with an overstated theatrical nodding of the head toward the Orange Ogre suggesting that he is crazy. It's called res gestae which in law loosely translates speaking gesture. There is nothing for him to respond to and he will know that he has been insulted and he will be put to the task of trying to describe what she did to him. I've done and it drives the person its done to nuts.
I take comfort from the fact that after Trump’s debate with Biden the polls showed that people were more disturbed by Trump’s lying than by Biden’s stumbles. Also Biden’s poll numbers hadn’t dropped that much after the debate. Unfortunately that was not the story our mainstream “liberal” media wanted to tell. The media continued hounding Biden — but not Trump — and that led to further drops in his poll number.
The media is proud that they succeeded in forcing Biden out. It really worries me that journalists will now think they have the right to do that to other candidates they don’t like. In fact I am convinced that the media was a big factor in Gore’s loss to Bush. They gleefully spread Karl Rove’s slander that Gore had claimed to have invented the internet even though journalists knew it was a lie. In fact I once heard Chris Matthews mock Gore for making that claim, than pause and admit he knew Gore had never said it. But that didn’t stop Matthews from continuing to repeat that lie because it was too much fun. Fun was clearly what mattered to our mainstream political journalists. They made no secret of the fact that they thought Bush was the better candidate because he would be “more fun to have a beer with”. It doesn’t get any more idiotic than that but there was a lot journalistic idiocy during that campaign.
“Going After Gore”
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2007/10/gore200710
Our Founding Fathers didn’t give the press unique constitutional protection so they could be free to amuse themselves.
Theodora, alas, our founders didn't give the press freedom to "amuse themselves," but they did anyway, and always have. They hoped, though that some reality would shine through and the people would pay attention enough to see which papers were honest, then support them. Our current TV and internet media are more about appearance and style than honest reporting. That is sad because it was not always that way. We need some reporters who are known for their complete integrity so people can trust them, at least most of the time. I listen to several different news sources and find none of them worthy of my full attention. They cover disasters pretty well, but when it comes to politics, they can't seem to let go of their need to "balance" everything even though not everything balances. Republicans at all levels for the past few decades have mostly been less than competent, unkind to ordinary Americans while smiling and claiming to be their friends, and more or rather less. And, the internet is a crazy place where even Russians and Chinese influencers can spew their garbage with hardly a peep in opposition. There was a crew recently caught who are now claiming they didn't know what they were spouting was Russian propaganda. They didn't care that it was a pack of lies and deliberate misinformation, but now don't want to be blamed for letting Russia use them. What a crock! We the People do need to demand better.
Are the moderators going to keep him on a leash this time? If not, it could be as meaningless as the last debate.
Ignoring him, as if he doesn’t exist is to get his “goat”, because he can’t handle ignored. A big, big trigger for his wounded ego. With his Mike muted, no way to interrupt her, verbally. He may start squirming, or try the moving out from behind his podium, like he stalked Hillary—— if he does that, she may need to Address that, by Commandingly Stand her Ground: Announce what he is Doing-like an Announcer, Request a Secret Server to remove him to his own space, and stop the debate until he is returned to his space. LOL.
If he keeps doing it, he might be guarded like a felon- that he is. Not a good look! Needing to be physically be Controlled, under guard. She calling the shots, Her In Control. He’d look like a bad boy, kindergartner. Jailbird.
Good points, Heather.
😉
Perfect! Totally agree and I have that t-shirt! Already told hubby that Tuesday night is pizza night! Kamala will have the pride and dignity and intelligence to outplay his stupid old debate games. We can't wait to watch.
I bought popcorn to get ready.
Well put. Thank you.
😉
I think it will contrast their personalities. People may not realize that Trump is a misogynist and a bully.
I’m sorry Kamala has chosen to “debate”. Trump doesn’t have the first idea of what a debate really is. He will just open the floodgates of meaninglessness. Even a well-placed barb from Ms. Harris will not faze him—he is so disconnected from his feelings.
Kamala Harris has debated in a court of law, so she does know how to debate against Con-Old. She is also studding his past debates, so she will know how he debates, giving her an edge against the convict, that she has put some like him in prison.
Inotherwords, Kamala is EDUCATED, EXPERIENCED,& READY TO take on the likes of DJT,just another in MANY she has prosecuted in the past! SHE KNOWS his TYPE! EVERY woman in American KNOWS what THAT means!
I hope you are right. Trump might not be her first "volume liar," but he is freaking exhausting as he revs up his lying engine and starts to blow! I wish her well. He's a menace to the nation.
Do you know what the dynamics of an argument are? Aggressor: Rages. Recipient: Smiles. Aggressor: Tries again. Recipient: Cocks her head precociously and smirks and so on. It takes two for the heat of an argument to escalate. He's would-be escalating solo and getting nothing to feed off of to return fire. It leaves the Aggressor looking like a buffoon and fool.
TY! I've never heard a description of this tactic before. I have lots of faith in Kamala, but this could disarm him.
Kamala Harris is ready to battle him, just seen in the evening news, she will be ready for his lies, and she plans on confronting him on them lies. It will be a good debate, I have my DVR set to record it already.
Con-Old! Thats one of the best ones I’ve heard yet! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻. Another favorite is Mango Mussolini.
I got it from someone on here
What feelings?
I inadvertantly friended a Trumper on FB shortly before the 2015 debate with Clinton. I watched, she watched. I thought Clinton was excellent (excepting her negative comment about his "awful" followers"). My "friend", on the other hand, basically said the Donald tromped all over Clinton was was the clear winner by a mile. So Will Harris' debating skills really have an impact on those who've drunk the Koolaid?
No I doubt it. But she’s not talking to those people. Shd will be talking up those people who still claim they don’t know which candidate they believe or trust (?????). She needs to present herself as a strong and leader and not focus too much on his BS which we all know there will be plenty of or talk too much about policy. She needs to present a vastly coherent and stable alternative to his insanity. Don’t get dragged down into his sludge.
You couldn't move Maggats off their position with a jackhammer.
Your comment is spot-on. Many of the persuadable potential voters might not even tune into the event live, but rather follow up with streaming services like YouTube that will likely provide access to short snips of the event that are particularly impactful. As long as they are persuaded to vote for Harris I don't mind any mechanism to convince them to vote for sane leadership.
Agreed. Behave in a way that's a cut avove. A cut WAAAAAAY above.
Well, THAT won't take much!
Trumpists will believe he won regardless of how the debate develops.
Naturally. If you can believe that a person who has a total of 90 charges pending in 4 separate jurisdictions is being persecuted, then, you will believe anything. I don't know the name of the rule but years ago someone told me that in an array of controversies involving different issues when there is one constant, the problem is the constant.
No, it won’t have any impact on his followers. My hope is that it will have an impact of anyone who is undecided, and on the media itself.
I don’t trust the media to change their opinion or style. They don’t favor democrats.
Her only goal is to make him look like the buffoon that he is and show how unfit he is to be POTUS. He won't disappoint. He can help himself. He always was unqualified and unfit but now he is in significant mental decline. I read that his phonemic paraphasia (those fading/mauled words) is a medical sign of dementia. His dad suffered from dementia.
And if she had chosen not to "debate him"? Where do you think that would have led? She had no choice. She has to be seen knowing how to corral an all out liar, thief, adjudicated rapist, scammer, and misogynist. She can only do that face to face. What needs to be done, is, when he starts to speak when during her time? Turn on his mic so every one can hear what calumnious garbage he is muttering to throw her off track, just like he did to Pres. Biden. Biden was the only one hearing the crap. Why do you think he couldn't respond? And the pillars of salt aka moderators? I hope the ogre's team sent them flowers and champagne to thank them for playing the orange turd's game.
This was never going to be a debate. A cogent, formal debate involves substance. Since he has none and simply bellows insults and what amounts to white noise, it was always going to be a food fight. She just has to remain calm which in and of itself will taunt him.
He (Trump) is very close to his emotions right now, as they are at the surface. He is lashing out in frustration, acting the entitled white male, insulting everyone he possibly can. Trump has no rein on his appetites or his bile. His negativity is his appeal to the detached-from-reality followers and/or Fox News viewers. He is going to make a fool of himself and his deplorable base will say, Nothing to see here, as they lead him back to a can of Ensure.
I am sure Kamala will be dignified and Trump will be the opposite. He will not answer questions. Still some media may say he won 🥏
He may be close to his emotions, but I doubt that he is seriously conscious of what they are. He is programmed to react, and that's all he knows.
Thin-skinned Don Old is fully capable of feeling humiliation and embarrassment. He especially hates being called "a baby." His motor mouth usual overpowers the opponent. However, KH is not your standard opponent. She was a prosecutor and senator from a state with the 6th largest economy in the world. He will pull out his stale, old tricks. Problem is they won't faze her which is not the standard reaction he's trying to provoke. Poor Don Old. The one-trick, ochre pony has met his match. If he does the stalking trick a la HRC, I hope she suddenly swings around and says "Boo" while stepping toward him. My bad...yes, I am.
However, those who watch it may make up their minds who is sane and who is not.
He does have feelings - the negative kind.
Totally agree! It's a shame debate and lowers her status by catering to the press and playing this corrupt old game that got even worse when Trump took control over the media lackeys. I pray she rises above the fray and exposes this deplorable to the world by inciting his ugly racist animal nature
You have to remember Machiavellian narcissist don't have feelings. The reason I know this is I was married to a covert narcissist for 30 years.
The Moderators have thus far failed to rein-in DJT... Megan Kelly made a notable attempt... I have watched many DJT Interviews... I marvel at his ability to slither away from any fact-checking... I hope that Kamala earns a widely perceived Victory in this Debate...
Kamala will wipe the floor with DJT! Will the moderators"acknowledge" that? YES! I believe thay will be bipartisan in their reporting. BUT, will they be unAmerican by not questioning the "experts" assessments of how Trump's policies will actually affect the economy. WHY not TRUTH?
President Biden is an amazing leader for America. I love that man. I am so grateful he is here, capably guiding us and helping us feel safe, sound, and secure after that four nightmare years we had to endure from Trump. Maybe some have tried to forget how ugly Trump's reign was, but I remember. I remember sleepless nights, feeling on edge, literally praying that America and her democracy would survive while enduring the Orange Beast's brutal viciousness. Trump feels like he wants to be Hitler 2.0
It is distressing to hear when people attack Biden for being older when Trump is nearly the same age. Biden is intelligent, calm, and sensible. Biden is doing everything right for America. Trump is a senseless, moronic bully. Trump openly said, "I don't care about you." He doesn't! Trump only cares about his big, bloated ego and his psycho intentions and his malicious greed and tries to crush anyone who attempts to stop him. It is up to us to stop him. You and me. We. We must stop Trump from looming his dark shadow over America ever again by using our power to VOTE.
It feels like a betrayal when people snidely look down on Biden after all of his incredible accomplishments these past four years. He's helped–and is still helping–America in countless ways including improving the economy, providing more jobs, protecting our health care, and giving us back our status with other countries. Trump tried to rob us of all of these things. Have you so quickly forgotten?
Just as Mary very effectively points out here, Toxic Trump endlessly spews venom and nonsense and crazy, making zero sense. Why on earth news media keeps letting this go is beyond belief. It is unacceptable. I'm grateful for Mary Trump's backbone and courage in her fight to bring Don-OLD Trump down and help make sure he stays down.
During the debate with President Biden, who is still running America beautifully, Trump appeared to want to derail Biden by drawing him into fighting Trump's smelly blasts of hot air. Where were the moderators during all of this? Why weren't they doing their job to moderate the madness of Trump?
Biden was not "confused." He clearly saw through Trump's baloney and simply refused to let the Orange Creep get under his skin. Biden did not "doubt himself" for one moment. Biden seemed to realize attempting to "counter" the stinking wind blown out by Trump would only be a distraction, as Trump intended. In fact, Biden stayed focused and correctly stuck to the reason he was there–making his important policy points known.
Now, no one can really say what Biden was feeling, but it felt like Biden tried to rise above Trump's inane "Gish Gallop" and essentially ignore it, because he and everyone else has heard it all before, ad nauseam. Of course Biden seemed "taken aback." Any human being with moral values feels taken aback by the onslaught of Trump's mad ramblings. Yes, Biden made some expressions of incredulity, just like anyone would who had a brain cell listening to the putrid garbage The Orange Stain vomits out unceasingly.
Trump is almost an octogenarian, so he has no "age" excuse. Trump is the one "descending into dotage." Trump is demented. Trump is insane. Trump is crazy. Biden is brilliant, highly capable, and continues doing a proven job of excellence for America. Did Biden have a bad night due to just coming off of a bad cold and not feeling his best during the debate? It would appear so, but he was determined to rise above the Orange Slime's disgusting diatribe and stick to the business at hand.
If Biden were continuing to run for a second term, I would gladly vote for him again. But he's seemed to decide that passing the torch to Kamala, for whom I will also gladly vote, was his best political move. He reminds me of President George Washington in his selflessness. This was a noble sacrifice for Biden. It breaks my heart that he felt he had to make such a sacrifice, but I honor him for it. I believe in President Joe Biden. I believe in Kamala Harris. We've already bleached the Orange Stain out of the White House. We can prevent that from ever happening again. We must protect America from further t-RUMP trauma together by making very sure we VOTE.
Katie, I totally agree with you about President Biden. He is a true patriot and an excellent President.
I am totally with you about Biden. I think very highly of him as a leader and a person. I hated the way his party trashed him and forced him to withdraw from the race. Shame on them.
If Kamala was running in a primary she would not have got my vote. However, now she is the alternative to Trump, so I will vote for her.
I still am cautious about the results of this election. It could go either way because we have the electoral college. This is not democracy but this is the system we are locked into. Never underestimate the bias of American voters against women and particularly Women of color.
Democrats needed to support Biden but they didn’t. They created very bad Karma when they publicly humiliated him, after he had achieved so much. It could work against them but I don’t know when or in what way. For the sake of the country I hope that Harris can beat Trump in a landslide this November. We cannot afford to have Trump and Vance at the top.
Biden showed how great and egoless he is by fully supporting his replacement. He never lost his smile in adversity. I left the Democratic Party after the democrats rejected him for being old and saying he could not win. I believe he could have won but now I will vote for Kamala.
WOW Thank you this is what I have been thinking and also wondering why more of us have not commented like you have. So now ou have embolden me to do so. Yes we are so so lucky that Biden is currently our president and history will show how well he got us all ut of the disaster TRUMP left us in Guess no one is remembering how many died and how many got so ill and that I do not recall that TRUMP had a plan to make sure we all had FREE access to the shots and medical assistance- a plan for Covid tests to be distributed for free nor arrogating for funds for those out of work- keeping tenants and homeowners from from being evicted The economy would have been in the dumpsters and TRUMP and his fang of followers in and his 1 percent friends would have bought u all the foreclosures and taken advantage of what would have been a disastrous economy. The entire world suffered high inflation NOT brought on by Bidens plans to assist Americans in need during COVID while TRUMPs tax breaks were assisting the 1% all during COVID were never paid for and inflationary. Rarely other thna on MSNBC do we hear any fact checks on how Biden got us out of TRUMPS disastrous economy and bad choices-- and today no other countries in the world have achieved what Biden has done for the US economy- and for the US citizens-Chris Hayes on MSNBC for a while was doing the are you better now than 4 years ago days- during the TRUMPS years - and YES WE ARE BETTER off now- why is the Press giving TRUMP a free ride on all his terrible choices he made during his term. His term was not the best accomplishment of all other Presidents etc etc but few fact check this. The Press has basically let Biden down (alos others) by NOT reminding US citizens of what Biden has done for the US - for our place in the world- that is so well respected by other world leaders NOT looked down upon as TRUMP says. i am so angry and disappointed with most of the press these days for what they have done to ignore all the positivity that Biden has accomplished for us. Morning Joe spent times pointing out what all the accomplishments the Biden term has accomplished and should be appreciated for it. He says He knew Harris would be a great VP and also now a great President so now Harris MUST get elected and carry on his vision and add to it hers and so we get back to normalcy and WOMENS RIGHTS to pregnancy heath care and CHOICE CAN BE RESTORED and TRUMP and his MAGA crowd will be defeated by a super large vote of none confidence ! PS I was a former Republican till Bill Clinton came on the scene. I will remain now for always a Democrat. Yes MARY TRUMP is a treasure for us too!
It seems Biden keeps getting us Out of messes created by someone else. You summarized them all I think. One thing that occurred to me was that after Biden’s debate in 2024, most in the media wrote him off. I am grateful to Lawrence ODonnell and Mary Trump for believing in him while his own party did not. The Democratic Party believed the media but not their own President who just two days later gave two impressive performances. One was about foreign policy and he displayed how well he could think. It was not enough for Pelosi and her followers (I lost all respect for her). It put the party in a tough situation- what to do at the convention? They were talking about bringing their favorite governors from different states to run against Biden - at the convention! Are these people nuts?
Biden recognized that a fragmented party cannot win. Democrats needed to be united to beat Trump. He sacrificed his own ambitions to bring these democrats together. He immediately endorsed Harris, who was the logical choice under the circumstances. Everyone fell in line with endorsements. There was peace. The convention did not become a circus . Instead there was strong support for Biden’s replacement. His wisdom is deep and his ego does not get in the way of achieving the bigger purpose.
I believe that he could have beaten Trump again but only if the party had united behind him. As Lawrence said there are examples of polls being wrong in the past elections. Nobody was willing to calm down. They were in panic mode after the debate. Democrats, donors, may be some celebrities believed that Biden could not win. They trashed him - a sitting President who never committed a crime. The party had become a mess. Republicans were thinking they had the election in the bag. It was the worst time.
Biden’s greatness lies in Not holding it against the scared children in the party. He was the adult. He continued to guide and help the party. In my opinion he is the best President we had in my lifetime. He is so under appreciated! It is very disappointing. Democrats lost the incumbent advantage and the White male advantage when they replaced Biden. Regardless, we need to win the WH, no matter who the Democratic nominee is. So I am going to start writing postcards. I am going on a cruise soon but I will take some postcards with me. I am sure I can write 5-10 per day while on vacation.
I agree Joe has been a phenomenal President, but I also think with we owe a debt of gratitude to whoever got through to him to bow out. The writing was on the wall with the poll numbers. People were not
getting past the idea that he’s too old for four more years, and I don’t think that’s wrong. The job is mentally AND physically demanding and he showed at the debate that he’s lost some steps. I didn’t think it was as bad as the narrative, I watched it after the fact, but it reenforced the country’s reluctance to support a visibly old man to the highest office. He needed a really solid performance to overcome people’s concerns, he delivered far below that. His poll numbers were already underwater and that debate was not going to allow any room for improvement. Say what you want about Nancy, but she knows how to count and she knew there was no way for Biden to get there and the stakes are too high. Our only hope was Biden doing what he did. Trump was headed for a landslide, as inexplicable as that is.
Now the contrast of Don-Old, an angry, lying, hateful, selfish, and self-serving criminal, against a young, kind, cares about everyone, smart, competent leader should help to turn the tide when they are side by side. It’s still incomprehensible how close it is. I loath blind partisanship!
Sorry but I disagree. Biden is a fighter. He would have fought through it and could have won but only if his party had not crumbled against the media onslaught. The media are always against the democrats and one bad performance was the dysentery needed to create an explosion.
The democrats lost two major advantages by Biden’s withdrawal. Incumbency (one of Lichtman’s 13 keys) and white Beale advantage. No matter how excited people feel about Kamala, when it comes to actual voting, some if them could balk. Never underestimate the racism and sexism in the USA. It is deeply ingrained. Otherwise we would not have seen such a close race between Harris and Trump. It could go either way.
About polls, Lawrence had good examples from the past that showed that polls could be wrong, and there was plenty of time left for Biden to recover.
I believe the media wanted to get rid of him because he had the potential to beat Trump. Replacing a nominee this late makes a party lose. One bad performance by Biden was amplified by the media 1000 times. Trump keeps talking nonsense and shows signs of dementia but we don’t hear a blip about it from the media.
The media and the billionaires who own them are controlling our elections and our political system. Had Biden not had the farsight, this could have been a tragic situation for the democrats. If they lose this election it is on the Dems And the republicans. I am hoping that somehow Trump loses and cannot recover even with This SCOTUS.
The best thing would have been democrats supporting their incumbent President and build a fortress around him (not literally), just like the republicans did for Trump everytime he got in trouble. That’s why they are in a position to win this election, with a convicted felon as their nominee.
Sorry, there is just no concrete support for this view. There was a high percentage of double haters and that has virtually disappeared. RFK had nearly 10% support, that eroded and he dropped out. Harris wiped out all of Biden’s polling deficits and has largely pulled Biden’s coalition back together which was crumbling. She’s had surges in new voter registrations, volunteers, and record donations, especially among first time donors. That money and volunteer is allowing organizing deeper in new areas to drive votes to erode DJT support in crucial areas of battlegrounds on top of the critical work in these states. She is galvanizing women and weaponizing the abortion issue which Biden was weak on. She can run on the great parts of his agenda but pivot on the areas he has perceived weakness such as the economy and immigration. People are excited to vote for her, this is far more motivating than having to vote for someone when you don’t want to vote for either one.
It is wishful thinking given how low Biden’s approval ratings were and how many people believed we were on the wrong track to think he could magically overcome the high negatives and the deep concern over his age and fitness that he only entrenched after that performance. Sorry, those are just data driven facts.
As I descend into my "dottage"!....it is so refreshing and rejuvenating!? to read such an intelligent discourse. Albeit I have chosen to be a Permanent Resident (from Scotland) for 35 years and can not vote (even though all taxes are paid diligently), my 3 children will happily hold the banner high for Kamala. Without her holding together USA....the WORLD will disintegrate under The Driveling Idiot.
You need to become a citizen. I did. It doesn’t make you less Scottish.
HaHa. That is like asking me to have a shot of Whisky. Something I have never done and never will do! Stink of distilleries turned me off for life.
I'm dottage'ing right there with you and I feel renewed. I have hope and I like watching the wingnuts' Scylla and Charybdis, twin Greek mythology monsters keep digging. The first rule of "holes" is quit digging.
Bad Faith and Good Faith are two different languages. Donald only speaks in Bad Faith. It’s a terrific language! You get to say lies and stupid stuff without shame or scruples. It’s a demonstration of power over the Good Faith people. The burden of combating the lies falls on the Good Faith people, including the Good Faith press. If they stay silent the Liar wins!
The Good Faith press will stay silent. Even if they think of trying Trump's lies come so fast and furious fact-checking would take all the time.
Corporate media is in the tank. He is click bait and a revenue stream. You can't kill the goose that lays the golden--sorry--orange eggs.
Bad Faith and Good Faith are two different languages. Excellent comment.
I suspect it's a reason she wanted them to be able to interrupt one another.
A superb analysis, Frederick. Thank you. 'The truth no longer has currency' is an expression of the current state of US politics for the ages. This will define the Trump years going forward for centuries as will his ability to create a cult impervious to truth or reason comprised of roughly 40% of the population despite his substantial character flaws and criminal behaviour. It's a long road that doesn't have a garbage can at the end of it. Keep the faith. I'm 76 years old. I'm determined to live long enough to see the end of that road.
Dump wouldn't know what truth was if he fell out of bed on it. Christian? Only if spelled with a "K" and followed by a couple more after that. The "Chosen One?" Chosen one what?
Gish gallop worked on Biden mainly because he is a stutter and gish gallop overloads the brain especially in stutters and locks it up so to speak. Mel tillis was a stutter why he sang I believe. (beautiful voice too) he won't be as lucky with Kamala.
Plus Biden had a cold and he had just returned from an international visit that made him go through many time zones. That really affects the brain.
His "handlers" also had him working too hard and gave him no rest time. They are partially to blame for his slow reactions.
I think they overloaded him with detailed information which was unnecessary to debate Trump. That, combined with his jet lag and his cold created a perfect storm.
The most effective tool for dealing with the gish gallop is to go meta. Don't respond to any of it. Instead reply with something like,
"Donald, you were asked a yes or no question. Are you even capable of answering a simple question with a 'yes' or 'no'? People haven't taken time out of their lives to watch some old man blather nonsense instead of answering the question. I bet the listeners would like to know: is it 'yes' or 'no'?"
And, since they're going to have hot mics, as an aside somewhere during the night, she should break the positive "weave" spin they're putting on his inability to speak coherently on any topic:
"You know, he calls the way he follows his train of thought wherever it wanders, 'weaving.'
"Well, I gotta tell ya, when I see a train weaving like that, I know my safety and that of everyone else depends on staying as far away as possible. "
My method (above) would be to ask him what his third question was in order to stymie him bc he would have no idea what he said bc he machine guns bullshit. I would love to seen him stunned into silence however briefly. Cheesy Smile.
Ha! That would have been a sight to see!
I have long detested Trump’s ability to completely derail what should be an intelligent two-way conversation and also why nobody calls it out for what it is! Thank you so much for telling us about the Gish Gallop. Utterly fascinating. Living in England, I so hope Trump is roundly defeated in November!
I assume she has been preparing for this, & that she has a good strategy to counteract this. She could pick out a couple things he said in each stream of lies to refute & mention that all the rest he said are lies, too, but that she doesn't have the time to rebut every single one. But I assume in her career as a prosecutor she has had quite a bit of practice in countering witnesses' lies, so I hope this will be child's play for her.
But we never can be sure, even with adequate preparation, how well someone will fare in a debate ahead of time. Biden had plenty of preparation, but surprisingly not for streams of lies for which Trump is well-known, & his mental capacity at the debate was obviously not in tip top shape, which can happen to anyone.
How effective would it be to hear Candidate Kamala Harris start her turn, after Deranged Donnie’s shut off his Mike, at the “Debate,” to state. Another Incoherent Galloping Gish of gibberish. Unintelligible nonsense. Then smile. Not even having looked at him. She proceeds to Intelligently Discuss her issues, or what ever she would say had he spoke. Ignore him, as if he’s totally absent. Because, he actually is-totally brainless. His is in fact empty-absent. That will trigger him, hugely!
Thanks so much for sharing the formalized term for it. The technique is so obvious so it makes sense it would have a name. It's hard to beleive Biden's handlers didn't antcipate this and prepare him for that certainty! THEY are the ones who blew it.
Yes, that's exactly the ploy that Biden fell for, hook line, and sinker, and it obviously confused the hell out of him. Hard to believe his handlers didn't see that coming and prep him, accordingly. Very sad.