I disagree. Equal justice or not, the death penalty will kill innocent people. It can be justified only if its benefits outweigh the wrong of killing innocent people. Since it has no benefits except satisfying some people’s thirst for revenge, it cannot be justified.
No government, state or nation should have the right to kill its citizens. There is abundant evidence and data that shows the death penalty is not a deterrent to violence or murder.
Actually, nothing could outweigh the wrong of killing innocent people except arguably — and it is arguable — to prevent the deaths of a greater number of innocent people. But I can’t imagine this situation arising in real life. It arises in philosophical hypotheticals, like the trolley problem. Google it if you’re interested.
Actually Henry, the death penalty, which was originally thought to be a deterrent for others to commit murder, isn't. Numerous studies over a very long time have proven the death penalty's only proven purpose is revenge. A very petty reason. It is reasonable to lock people away from all society for their life (not 25 years, their whole life no matter how long) it's cheaper too. The death penalty comes with the right to appeal sometimes up to 4 times. Court trials are way more expensive than harboring a murder for life
I oppose life without parole. Most murderers are young, and some turn into good people when they get older. To keep such people in prison serves no purpose but revenge.
and they will be executed in the town square and their heads hung from the gate into the city. Since originalism and texturalism are the latest mantra from the MAGApublican clowns, why not go back to the middle ages?
It is and will be much worse if that demented orange turd is elected a second term. Gross injustices like what happened to Marcellus Williams will be a regular occurrence under his rule. As Mary pointed out, the evidence against Trump for what he did on January 6 is greater than what the authorities had on Mr. Williams. Yet, he's allowed a galavant around the country making threats and committing more crimes without any consequences. Starting with our questionable Supreme Court, our judicial system needs a long overdue overhaul that doesn't favor criminal politicians.
Ms. Harmon, myself, I do not believe there is such a thing as "equal justice for all."
The modern nation state is overwhelmingly the most powerful form of social organization in history.
As long as we live in nation states; the best we can hope for is transparency and institutionalized, constant pressure brought to bear against the state's awesome power in an effort to achieve the closest we can get to "equal justice for all."
There should not be a death penalty, period. The awesome, inherently unequal power of the state vs. the individual citizen should never be used to take the life of the citizen, for any reason, under any circumstance.
1) Killing the convicted citizen does not undo the crime. If the crime was murder, killing the murderer does not bring back their dead victim. Execution is no more than vengeance. A thing the state must never be allowed to exact because of that inherently unequal power between the state and the citizen. Vengeance is an abuse of power. It is an example of "might makes right." Punishment of the guilty does not help the victim in any way. If we had laws which require the convicted to repay the victim of property crimes, ie. restitution; we would be a more just society. But we have no such system. We punish. We do not practice restitution.
2) There is no empirical evidence which demonstrates that the death penalty reduces crime rates. None. Murder included.
3) There is always the possibility that the murder-conviction was faulty and the convicted citizen is not actually guilty of the crime. This seems to be a likely possibility in the present case. The state can avoid this compounding of harm in society by choosing an alternative response to the crime than execution; execution is irreversible harm.
In return for all that unmatched power which the sovereign citizen grants to the nation state; the state must always, under all circumstances, always provide, and advocate for the general welfare of the citizen. If the state fails in this contract with its citizens: justice will be meaningless.
State-sanctioned killing of any state’s own citizens is what Putin & his ilk do. It flies in the face of America’s much-vaunted principles. As does the second-classing of American women & people of color. To be a gravid black woman in America is a potential death sentence all on its own.
I honestly believe the injustices inherent in our society & “justice” system are a predictable & direct result of the concepts expressed in the books held sacred by churches, large & small. Organized religions & the people who adhere to them are the torch-bearers & stone-throwers throughout history.
All one need do to prove that theory is to observe the horrors occurring in Israel (and spreading) at this moment.
If there were equal justice, we wouldn't have a death penalty. Murder is crime against humanity whether it is government sanctioned or individual rendered, murder is still murder.
Wouldn’t “pro-birth” or “pro-control” be a better name for “pro-life” Republicans because they don’t give a rat’s ass about kids’ lives after they’re born. If they did, they’d do something about gun control and school shootings. Talk about killing kids after they’re born!
Uvalde still gets all over me. Law Enforcement was not held accountable for not protecting all the children and teachers in the classroom. BAN ASSAULT WEAPONS NOW!
Oh it's all about babies. For stem cells and adrenaline. These are the people who cage children and took them away from their families and never return them to their families. They're totally disgusting
Talk about confusing rules... Back in the 70s while attending nursing school where my clinical was done at a catholic hospital, yes a Voluntary Interription of Pregnancy (VIP) were documented this way on the operating room schedule. This was the way of documenting abortions back then should I wish to not scrub in on that particular procedure for religious reasons.
This took place in NJ.
Then back in the 80s a woman requesting a tubal ligation in southern NJ would need a copy of her divorce decree prior to being "allowed" to have this procedure done..These regulations were determined by hospital's executive and administrative boards. But If one lived in northern NJ, a woman requesting a tubal ligation, did not need her spouse's permission..
Then the Catholic religion needs to jump to the 2020s. As a Jewish Italian American married to a Catholic American, things can change. It’s time for Catholics (Cathoholics) to get with the program. It’s time for reform.
just wait. it is probably the project 2025 addendum that is yet to be published. it is totally fucked what these MAGApublican clowns (MC) do to women. Y’all deserve the respect. I think most men shiver the the thought of a woman being in power. that may be why the MC do what they do?
Actually they are talking about outlawing hysterectomis for trans people in project 2o25 but I am sure it will be applied to all women. They have no connection to medical needs or compassion otherwise they wouldn't block medical necessary abortions that threaten a woman's life. That exposes their true agenda if their prior habit of shooting doctors didn't give it away.
They also don't give a rat's ass about mothers or fathers. They are hypocrites who have no clue how opposite their actual stance is from what they say.
And lest we forget, They oppose free lunches, oppose common sense gun legislation and dont have a problem with our kids practicing active shooter drills . They talk out both sides of their mouth. I cant wait………I pray he goes down this election
What would they do if their children were faced with this? Use Mike Johnson's bat phone to call his son on their Faceporn? That way no one would get pregnant!
We must not expect President Harris to make all the needed corrections herself; she needs the Senate and the House to be controlled by Democrats committed to change.
BINGO! And I hardly hear anyone talking about it. Harris/Walz will be hog-tied if we don't give them the House and Senate majorities, just like Obama was when Dems didn't show up in the 2010 midterms,
North Carolina’s Democratic Governor Cooper has labored under a supermajority of republican legislators. He still manages to be a fine governor but his vetoes are overridden and his policies are hamstrung. He deserved better during his administration which ends this year due to term limits. I hope to see him in Washington working in the Harris White House.
Dancing Fox, I hope you are correct about Gov. Cooper. But I am not going to hold my breath. The same people in the Democratic Party who corrupted Obama once he was in the White House will corrupt Harris when it is her turn. To add fuel to my fire, I must point out that in his first presidential campaign Obama was much further to the left than Harris is now. Before he entered politics, he was a community organizer for lefty causes in Chicago. I will be surprised if Harris is even much of a Liberal after she enters the White House. Do not forget that before she went to Washington, she was essentially a cop who sent citizens to prison and no she is bragging about this.
Kris, I am not such an admirer of Obama. During his first two years as president both houses of congress were controlled by the Democrats. Obama could have pushed through a medicare-for-all bill. But he did not. During his first campaign he promised a "public option" if he was elected. After he was elected he quietly let the "public option" disappear from his vocabulary. Obama is a great talker. No question about that. But as a President he falls short of anything great. If the Democrats had given us a "public option" there would have been no loss of power to the Republicans in the midterm elections.
Obama had a razor slim majority and Joe Manchin was a drag on the party. - just to play devil’s advocate here - Along with that McConnell announced publicly that his one goal was to make the Obama presidency fail. He worked hard at that and had a lot of help.
Yes Dancing Fox, I agree with all you say. Might I add that Kyrsten Sinema was a problem as well. I also think that somewhat behind their smiling faces Pelosi and Schumer are sticking it to us also.
If I recall correctly, Obama's 2009 Senate majority was hampered by the death of Ted Kennedy, and the delayed seating of Al Franken. While he started his term with 59 (Dem and Ind) Senators, it was never a filibuster-proof majority! Through a series of shifting Senators, Dems truly had control for only 4 months in the 111th Congress - Oct 2009 to Feb 2010. It's also true that the Dems wrote the healthcare bill according to what some Republicans claimed to want, then they refused to vote for it. While it wasn't what he wanted for this country, Obama had to settle for what would get past McConnell's filibuster threats. And then we, the voters, didn't show up for him in the midterms... and so goes the rest of the story.
Good job, Kris, remembering those significant details. It was very, very close, and there were some Southern Reps from the House who tried to use that closeness in the votes as leverage for their own gain, not the American People. Mary Landrieu from LA comes to mind, as does Blanche Lincoln from Arkansas, and Ben Nelson from Nebraska. If anything, Pelosi made it happen.
I agree that the Voting Rights Bill should have been the priority with Obama after the 2000 election showed the discrepancies in States subverting Citizens votes. Pelosi didn't focus on ERA, women's Rights, Voting, Congressional Integrity in the Stock Market, and a lot of the things that I thought were of prime importance. Now all these things are causing trouble. I believe that's why Democrats lost their advantage during the midterm. I hope they understand this now.
Also, remember - Trump wasn’t supposed to win. There were many things Hillary planned to do as President, and likely could have completed the list. Here we are in 2024, with so much unfinished, but also - should Trump win, as a Nation, we will be set back even further.
The execution of Marcellus Williams is one of the saddest and most infuriating failures of the US judicial system in history. I shudder at how we have devolved to such inhumanity. 🥺😢
Brenda, what grounds would the family of the dead Mr. Williams have for a legal action? He was executed legally. Such is our system, currently. Keeping "this travesty in the public eye" is a great idea. That is the meaning of transparency. A necessity in a nation state, especially a Democracy, if it is to survive its own demons from within.
It is never necessary for the state to execute anyone. There are indeed predators, but we can protect society from them by separating them from the public via incarceration. I understand that people sometimes have to kill in defense of themselves or others, but if a person is in custody, that is sufficient.
I am a retired Marine, and although I never had to kill anyone, for which I am very grateful, I was ready to be deployed to combat if it was necessary to defend our Constitution and country. But I am clear on the distinction between that, individual defense, and execution by a government.
This is a personal issue for me. My nine-year-old grandson was murdered in 2013, and there was some disagreement within the family when it came to the sentencing of his killer. Some of the family wanted the death penalty. I could not rationalize setting aside the principle just because in this case it was personal, so I argued for life imprisonment instead. While I believe that the murderer is one of those predators and can never be safely allowed to reenter society, I also believe that executing him would have been an evil that would not have been justified by the evil he had committed.
If we were really a civilized country, there would be no death penalty in the U.S. It's a stain on our national soul.
I am very sorry that you lost your grandson. Grandsons are a wonderful gift (as are granddaughters). I am also very impressed that you have been able to maintain your sanity through that. I am finally learning in my old age how wrong the death penalty is, and agree that if we were civilized, there would not be a death penalty. Oh, and there would also be sane gun laws.
I'm extremely sorry that your grandson was murdered. For you to have this opinion about the person who took his life is admirable. Truthfully, I don't know if I could do that, even though I have a very strong Christian faith. I am against the death penalty but I've never lost someone in the horrendous way you lost your grandson. Continued peace to your family.
I agree with your assessment. What I can't get past, is that these killers who completely disregarded the life of another human being, are given more rights and privileges in prison than a lot of our law-abiding citizens have. I don't agree that those who have disrespected life, should have anything but basic human rights - food, water, shelter, dignity, bodily autonomy, basic medical care, etc. No, we don't torture them or abuse them, but they shouldn't be allowed to live better than the poorest families in our country, either.
Have you been inside a prison? Especially a high security prison for violent criminals. Rest assured, only the few wealthy white-collar criminals who are incarcerated are treated "better than the poorest families in our country." First and foremost, because our most valued principle is our freedom, our primary form of punishment is to take away freedom. If you have not experienced being locked in a room, or a cage, from which you cannot leave, being told when to get up and when to go to bed, what to wear, what to eat, what work to do, when to stand up and sit down. Day after day, week after week, year after year, and you have the same routine, wear the same clothes, see the same people, and worry about who is around you every moment, you don't know punishment. Murder is murder, whether at the hands of a citizen or the government. Incarceration is punishing. Period. One more thought - as some have noted in our conversation, there are people from whom, for many different reasons, we need to be protected, but, in my experience in state prisons, there are more who, frankly, need to be protected from us. Our society is set up for them to fail and be locked away.
I've spent 12 years behind bars in federal prisons. Budget cuts and for-profit prisons have led to deteriorating conditions in the prisons I've seen. Medical care and food nowadays are generally lousy, and if you need a special diet, good luck! County jails, even in liberal California, are far worse.
Wow Ms. Davis, well said. I worked in a prison in Michigan for a couple years. You are correct in your assessment. And in your concluding sentence "Our society is set up for them to fail and be locked away." I could relate true stories about the Kinross Correctional Facility [a prison by any other name would smell as bad] which would vouch for all you have said.
I can't argue with you, having never been in prison. What you describe is how I think it should be for those who commit such violence - particularly repeated violence. I do know a murderer who was able to finish his college degree, had a complicated spinal disc surgery to alleviate his headaches, got mental health and substance abuse treatment, and was able to work out enough that his chubby, soft body became ripped. He also had three meals per day, every day... unlike a lot of the children in our country. He was a model prisoner, a white man, and incarcerated in Florida for only seven years, if that makes any difference (and is currently serving another sentence). So clearly, not all prisons are the same as you describe. We spend tens of millions to rehabilitate criminals, then the system releases them so they can violate more innocent people, because our prisons are full. I'm sorry, but I'd rather see my tax dollars supporting law-abiding, productive members of society who need help, or even reformation of our criminal justice system. I don't disagree that our society is set up for some to fail, but the fact remains that we all have choices, and we usually have chances to reform or change our behavior. We're not talking about someone who had to steal in order to feed their kids - we're talking about those who repeatedly violate lives.
Kris, we certainly do not "spend tens of millions to rehabilitate criminals then" release "them so they can violate more innocent people." We do spend tens of millions on our prison industry so we can fill criminals with overwhelming anger, burning hatred, towering rage, and a blinding urge for vengeance; then we release "them so they can violate more innocent people." Please take this as a sincere response from one who has worked in a hell hole of a prison which is euphemistically called a "Correctional Facility." I studied and taught Criminology for four decades. Many of my former students are prosecutors, judges and prison guards. Such is our system of "criminal justice."
I appreciate your insight, Gerald. I'd be interested to know your opinion of a more effective way to spend those tens of millions. Seems to me that those who commit violent crimes, carry a certain amount of anger and urge for vengeance at their core. How do we learn to mentally process that kind of rage, without acting out? Why don't all human beings avenge their anger by hurting others? At what point do we deem someone "broken" and/or "unfixable"? And what do we do with them then? I guess that's a whole 'nuther thread... Thank you.
However, how many poor or unhoused people are afforded free health care, free education, and three squares a day? All paid for by our taxes. I’m not condoning execution, I’m pissed I have to support the monsters jailed for life.
Ms. Jolley, have you ever thought about a system of restitution and rehabilitation? The United States of America imprisons more citizens per capita than any other country, including China and Russia yet our crime rates are not lower. They are higher in the US than in most of the industrialized modern world. For instance; Scandinavian countries imprison hardly at all, yet their crime rates are minuscule compared to the US. The much higher crime rates are in failed, third world countries. All of these countries are former colonies of the rich, powerful Western nations.
Some are, yes. Some are not. (And we should institute harsher penalties for animal abusers, since statistics show us that they are very likely to abuse human beings down the road.)
It’s personal to me, as well, Jim. My daughter was murdered 9 years and 3 days ago.
It was a particularly heinous way to commit this murder. Her throat was cut and he placed her in the bathtub where I found her in a fetal position. He was asleep in her bed. I kicked him in the head and ribs.
When the trial came I was in a bad way. When it came to the murderer’s penalty I was vehemently against the death penalty. He sentenced to Life Imprisonment without chance for parole.
I just couldn’t and still don’t understand why we execute someone who committed murder.
Life imprisonment, without chance of parole, is what I wanted. It seemed to me anyway that punishment was preferable because they would have to go to sleep and wake up for the rest of their lives.
Thank you Mr. Finley. You clearly are an honorable, tolerant, courageous, clear thinking man. I could not agree with you more. You might want to read my response to Ms. Harmon above.
This is a heartbreaking reminder of the deep flaws in our justice system and the selective application of fairness. It's hard to comprehend how a life can be taken despite such overwhelming doubt, while others seem to evade accountability for far more damning actions. It's a chilling reflection of the systemic inequalities that persist, and it underscores the urgent need for reform and true justice. Thank you for shedding light on this tragic injustice.
The Right Wing Supreme Court Justices are White Catholics while the innocent fellow executed was a Moslem Black Man. Just a couple of facts not mentioned so far.
Marcellus Williams, besides being innocent, was a Muslim and Imam of the prison where he was held. I believe his religion played a part in the governor Missouri's decison to murder Mr. Williams when the prosecutor and members of the victims family felt he was innocent.
The death penalty is vile and will inevitably result in the deaths of the innocent; although it shouldn't be applied to those who are guilty either.
"Mary is never going to answer my questions... Are Donald's supporters' brains fully developed? If a human's brain is supposedly fully developed after age 25, how can someone vote for Donald?"
It's our consciousness that goes through the brain that's not fully developed. Our bodies, including our brains, are pretty much fully developed, but our awareness of how we are one interconnected humanity is still in process of being understood by all.
You are asking Mary to assess neurological or cognitive development of a variety of people? There are many people who support PO #1135809 (I never write or say his name - he says it enough for all of us) who are extremely intelligent and are simply using him as a frontman to do their dirty work. Leonard Leo is the mastermind behind the SCOTUS take-over because he is obsessed with his Catholic faith telling him all Americans should follow the Pope's decisions about abortion. Look him up - he planned on rescinding Roe via SCOTUS for several decades. Peter Theil, a tech billionaire, bought JD Vance and sold him to the GOP so he could influence IT regulations. It goes on and on. Power (control), money, and greed drive them - and they are smart about it. Should the FL felon ever be held accountable for his many crimes against all of us, they will simply find another frontman to fool the ignorant and uneducated into voting for them. Looks like JD is their next stooge and they have set him up to keep the curtain covering them.
I agree wholeheartedly, Katie. I would like to add -- because many people are not aware -- that not all Catholics walk lock-step with the Vatican or the Catholic political agenda. Millions of us follow the teachings of Jesus and our own conscience -- formed at home and in Catholic schools. As a matter of fact, Leonard Leo and his ilk are opposed to the current Pope because Francis is "too focused" on Gospel values. The Catholic faith has always had a strong social justice component based on the teachings of Jesus -- caring for the sick, the indigent, orphans, etc. It's a tragedy that the Catholic Church in America has become a one-note religion with JD Vance as its most embarrassing ambassador.
I think of, and refer to, them as the Republifascists. Abbreviated Rfs. I recently read an excellent small book titled How Fascism Works: the Politics of Us and Them by Jason Stanley. The Rfs are checking all the boxes.
Re: book. I thought to stick to eBook after an expensive visit to Barnes and Noble yesterday. Sample was so interesting I will probably order so my non book-freak husband can read it. Thank you so much for helping me as I wall myself into my house with too many books! 😜😁Seriously, thank you. 😘
Although I still have a lot of books floating around, I had to put almost all of them into storage when I moved into a apartment. I'm mainly on Kindle now.
Is Donald dyslexic? And please explain the sickness of a man who claims to want to protect women yet takes away their right to privacy over the most intimate thing that happens to their bodies, sexually assaults them, boasts about grabbing them, buries his wife in a golf course for a tax break and puts his hands on his daughter like she's some kind of date.
Carolea, he doesn't want to protect woman. Never has, never will. He's just saying that to get them to vote for him. He will say whatever it takes to get people to do what he wants.
He had Mommy issues.. She was a tough Scottish lady and Donny did not come up to her standards - his parents sent him to military high school from 13- 18 if you can imagine that in order to instil some discipline but he came out even worse. Mother only warmed up, later than never, when the Apprentice happened and he was on TV.
In addition to the reasons stated in the essay, the death penalty does not accomplish anything. It's not a deterrent and it can't undo the harm the individual did. It's purpose is revenge which also accomplishes nothing lasting.
Thank you for helping me to see the death penalty more clearly. I'm still not sure I can wrap my brain around revenge, but agree completely that it doesn't accomplish anything positive.
mer, could you elaborate on that? I seem to remember reading somewhere that in the end, it costs the state a lot more, what with appeals and all, to execute someone than to just keep them in prison for life. Tho I don't guarantee my memory!
I agree Ms. Jaeger, I said essentially the same thing above, in my response to Ms. Harmon, but not as elegantly as you. Just as an aside; I knew a Herman Jaeger in my youth. Sind sie aus Deutschland? or do you know what part of Germany your family is from?
Unequal justice: Clarence Thomas is bought and paid for. How is it that he is not charged with tax evasion for not reporting the fair market value of repetitive luxury gifts as income? His loan for the luxury RV was forgiven, but if a student loan that is forgiven must be declared as income. As a former fed I was required to report the fair market value of gifts and if there was the appearance of a conflict I had to recuse myself from even perceived conflicts of interests. This does not seem to apply to Clarence Thomas.
Until there is equal justice for all there shouldn’t be a death penalty.
In Donald world all people not like him will definitely suffer at the hands of his government.
Vote !!
I agree with Paula.
I disagree. Equal justice or not, the death penalty will kill innocent people. It can be justified only if its benefits outweigh the wrong of killing innocent people. Since it has no benefits except satisfying some people’s thirst for revenge, it cannot be justified.
No government, state or nation should have the right to kill its citizens. There is abundant evidence and data that shows the death penalty is not a deterrent to violence or murder.
I see your point both can be right at the same time… your statement makes it so “ if its benefits outweigh the wrong killing of innocent people “.
We have historical facts to prove your statement to be correct.
Actually, nothing could outweigh the wrong of killing innocent people except arguably — and it is arguable — to prevent the deaths of a greater number of innocent people. But I can’t imagine this situation arising in real life. It arises in philosophical hypotheticals, like the trolley problem. Google it if you’re interested.
Actually Henry, the death penalty, which was originally thought to be a deterrent for others to commit murder, isn't. Numerous studies over a very long time have proven the death penalty's only proven purpose is revenge. A very petty reason. It is reasonable to lock people away from all society for their life (not 25 years, their whole life no matter how long) it's cheaper too. The death penalty comes with the right to appeal sometimes up to 4 times. Court trials are way more expensive than harboring a murder for life
I oppose life without parole. Most murderers are young, and some turn into good people when they get older. To keep such people in prison serves no purpose but revenge.
I couldn’t agree more.
and they will be executed in the town square and their heads hung from the gate into the city. Since originalism and texturalism are the latest mantra from the MAGApublican clowns, why not go back to the middle ages?
They are working on dragging us back to the Middle Ages. They just dragged women first.
I think that is exactly what MAGA is trying to do!
It is and will be much worse if that demented orange turd is elected a second term. Gross injustices like what happened to Marcellus Williams will be a regular occurrence under his rule. As Mary pointed out, the evidence against Trump for what he did on January 6 is greater than what the authorities had on Mr. Williams. Yet, he's allowed a galavant around the country making threats and committing more crimes without any consequences. Starting with our questionable Supreme Court, our judicial system needs a long overdue overhaul that doesn't favor criminal politicians.
Read Liberty and Justice for Some.
Truth Paula
Ms. Harmon, myself, I do not believe there is such a thing as "equal justice for all."
The modern nation state is overwhelmingly the most powerful form of social organization in history.
As long as we live in nation states; the best we can hope for is transparency and institutionalized, constant pressure brought to bear against the state's awesome power in an effort to achieve the closest we can get to "equal justice for all."
There should not be a death penalty, period. The awesome, inherently unequal power of the state vs. the individual citizen should never be used to take the life of the citizen, for any reason, under any circumstance.
1) Killing the convicted citizen does not undo the crime. If the crime was murder, killing the murderer does not bring back their dead victim. Execution is no more than vengeance. A thing the state must never be allowed to exact because of that inherently unequal power between the state and the citizen. Vengeance is an abuse of power. It is an example of "might makes right." Punishment of the guilty does not help the victim in any way. If we had laws which require the convicted to repay the victim of property crimes, ie. restitution; we would be a more just society. But we have no such system. We punish. We do not practice restitution.
2) There is no empirical evidence which demonstrates that the death penalty reduces crime rates. None. Murder included.
3) There is always the possibility that the murder-conviction was faulty and the convicted citizen is not actually guilty of the crime. This seems to be a likely possibility in the present case. The state can avoid this compounding of harm in society by choosing an alternative response to the crime than execution; execution is irreversible harm.
In return for all that unmatched power which the sovereign citizen grants to the nation state; the state must always, under all circumstances, always provide, and advocate for the general welfare of the citizen. If the state fails in this contract with its citizens: justice will be meaningless.
So much evidence was gathered in favor of the decedent .
The prosecutor the family of the victim recanted statements.
Contaminated evidence for DNA mishandling by officers the Judge unfairly denied this case to move forward Supreme Court .
For me this is a stand alone case in my lifetime that shook me .
Thank you for the data .
Bravo - Very well articulated sentiments.
State-sanctioned killing of any state’s own citizens is what Putin & his ilk do. It flies in the face of America’s much-vaunted principles. As does the second-classing of American women & people of color. To be a gravid black woman in America is a potential death sentence all on its own.
I honestly believe the injustices inherent in our society & “justice” system are a predictable & direct result of the concepts expressed in the books held sacred by churches, large & small. Organized religions & the people who adhere to them are the torch-bearers & stone-throwers throughout history.
All one need do to prove that theory is to observe the horrors occurring in Israel (and spreading) at this moment.
With our approval.
With our tax dollars.
With our weapons.
If there were equal justice, we wouldn't have a death penalty. Murder is crime against humanity whether it is government sanctioned or individual rendered, murder is still murder.
Thank you Someone.
Wouldn’t “pro-birth” or “pro-control” be a better name for “pro-life” Republicans because they don’t give a rat’s ass about kids’ lives after they’re born. If they did, they’d do something about gun control and school shootings. Talk about killing kids after they’re born!
Uvalde still gets all over me. Law Enforcement was not held accountable for not protecting all the children and teachers in the classroom. BAN ASSAULT WEAPONS NOW!
It was never about the babies.
Oh it's all about babies. For stem cells and adrenaline. These are the people who cage children and took them away from their families and never return them to their families. They're totally disgusting
It’s about controlling women.
It’s about exerting control over vulnerable people.
It’s all about the control.
Absolutely about controlling women.
But yet, males aren't subjected to "it's illegal to get a vasectomy".
Had there been a "male version of roe v wade", they wouldn't have rescinded their rights.
I’m surprised they haven’t tried to outlaw tubal ligation. Or hysterectomy (which I once needed for healthcare.)
Those procedures won't be happening in a Catholic hospital, of which there are far too many in the U.S.
Talk about confusing rules... Back in the 70s while attending nursing school where my clinical was done at a catholic hospital, yes a Voluntary Interription of Pregnancy (VIP) were documented this way on the operating room schedule. This was the way of documenting abortions back then should I wish to not scrub in on that particular procedure for religious reasons.
This took place in NJ.
Then back in the 80s a woman requesting a tubal ligation in southern NJ would need a copy of her divorce decree prior to being "allowed" to have this procedure done..These regulations were determined by hospital's executive and administrative boards. But If one lived in northern NJ, a woman requesting a tubal ligation, did not need her spouse's permission..
Talk about confusing times! 🤔🤔
Then the Catholic religion needs to jump to the 2020s. As a Jewish Italian American married to a Catholic American, things can change. It’s time for Catholics (Cathoholics) to get with the program. It’s time for reform.
just wait. it is probably the project 2025 addendum that is yet to be published. it is totally fucked what these MAGApublican clowns (MC) do to women. Y’all deserve the respect. I think most men shiver the the thought of a woman being in power. that may be why the MC do what they do?
Actually they are talking about outlawing hysterectomis for trans people in project 2o25 but I am sure it will be applied to all women. They have no connection to medical needs or compassion otherwise they wouldn't block medical necessary abortions that threaten a woman's life. That exposes their true agenda if their prior habit of shooting doctors didn't give it away.
My thoughts exactly Karen.
They're too busy giving hysterectomies to women without their knowledge. Has everyone forgotten about that?
Gloria Steinem, quoting an Irish Catholic woman driving a Boston taxi, said in 1971 "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."
She was right then and is right today.
Totally. Power and control is what they want.
They also don't give a rat's ass about mothers or fathers. They are hypocrites who have no clue how opposite their actual stance is from what they say.
No. They should be called pro-death. They have already killed a couple of women whose pregnancies have gone awry, and no doubt they will kill more.
Mary just called them pro-death too on her live show just now.
Anti-Choice
Anti-Women
Forced birth is an accurate term to use.
And lest we forget, They oppose free lunches, oppose common sense gun legislation and dont have a problem with our kids practicing active shooter drills . They talk out both sides of their mouth. I cant wait………I pray he goes down this election
What would they do if their children were faced with this? Use Mike Johnson's bat phone to call his son on their Faceporn? That way no one would get pregnant!
We must not expect President Harris to make all the needed corrections herself; she needs the Senate and the House to be controlled by Democrats committed to change.
BINGO! And I hardly hear anyone talking about it. Harris/Walz will be hog-tied if we don't give them the House and Senate majorities, just like Obama was when Dems didn't show up in the 2010 midterms,
North Carolina’s Democratic Governor Cooper has labored under a supermajority of republican legislators. He still manages to be a fine governor but his vetoes are overridden and his policies are hamstrung. He deserved better during his administration which ends this year due to term limits. I hope to see him in Washington working in the Harris White House.
The same can be said of Andy Beshear in Kentucky.
Dancing Fox, I hope you are correct about Gov. Cooper. But I am not going to hold my breath. The same people in the Democratic Party who corrupted Obama once he was in the White House will corrupt Harris when it is her turn. To add fuel to my fire, I must point out that in his first presidential campaign Obama was much further to the left than Harris is now. Before he entered politics, he was a community organizer for lefty causes in Chicago. I will be surprised if Harris is even much of a Liberal after she enters the White House. Do not forget that before she went to Washington, she was essentially a cop who sent citizens to prison and no she is bragging about this.
Who “corrupted” Obama in the White House? Name them.
Kris, I am not such an admirer of Obama. During his first two years as president both houses of congress were controlled by the Democrats. Obama could have pushed through a medicare-for-all bill. But he did not. During his first campaign he promised a "public option" if he was elected. After he was elected he quietly let the "public option" disappear from his vocabulary. Obama is a great talker. No question about that. But as a President he falls short of anything great. If the Democrats had given us a "public option" there would have been no loss of power to the Republicans in the midterm elections.
Obama had a razor slim majority and Joe Manchin was a drag on the party. - just to play devil’s advocate here - Along with that McConnell announced publicly that his one goal was to make the Obama presidency fail. He worked hard at that and had a lot of help.
Yes Dancing Fox, I agree with all you say. Might I add that Kyrsten Sinema was a problem as well. I also think that somewhat behind their smiling faces Pelosi and Schumer are sticking it to us also.
I think I must have blocked Sinema 🥴. Yeah.
About the others - we will see.
If I recall correctly, Obama's 2009 Senate majority was hampered by the death of Ted Kennedy, and the delayed seating of Al Franken. While he started his term with 59 (Dem and Ind) Senators, it was never a filibuster-proof majority! Through a series of shifting Senators, Dems truly had control for only 4 months in the 111th Congress - Oct 2009 to Feb 2010. It's also true that the Dems wrote the healthcare bill according to what some Republicans claimed to want, then they refused to vote for it. While it wasn't what he wanted for this country, Obama had to settle for what would get past McConnell's filibuster threats. And then we, the voters, didn't show up for him in the midterms... and so goes the rest of the story.
Good job, Kris, remembering those significant details. It was very, very close, and there were some Southern Reps from the House who tried to use that closeness in the votes as leverage for their own gain, not the American People. Mary Landrieu from LA comes to mind, as does Blanche Lincoln from Arkansas, and Ben Nelson from Nebraska. If anything, Pelosi made it happen.
I agree that the Voting Rights Bill should have been the priority with Obama after the 2000 election showed the discrepancies in States subverting Citizens votes. Pelosi didn't focus on ERA, women's Rights, Voting, Congressional Integrity in the Stock Market, and a lot of the things that I thought were of prime importance. Now all these things are causing trouble. I believe that's why Democrats lost their advantage during the midterm. I hope they understand this now.
Also, remember - Trump wasn’t supposed to win. There were many things Hillary planned to do as President, and likely could have completed the list. Here we are in 2024, with so much unfinished, but also - should Trump win, as a Nation, we will be set back even further.
Vote Blue from the top to the bottom of your ballots. I do.
True. Remember to vote Blue.
I agree 100%, Richard! We must vote blue up and down the ballot in November in order to move our country forward!
Thank you, Mary Trump, for everything you do for justice, for our Democracy, for our sanity and for America. 💝
The execution of Marcellus Williams is one of the saddest and most infuriating failures of the US judicial system in history. I shudder at how we have devolved to such inhumanity. 🥺😢
I hope some decent lawyers at least represent the family in a law suit pro bono and keep this travesty in the public eye!!!!!
Brenda, what grounds would the family of the dead Mr. Williams have for a legal action? He was executed legally. Such is our system, currently. Keeping "this travesty in the public eye" is a great idea. That is the meaning of transparency. A necessity in a nation state, especially a Democracy, if it is to survive its own demons from within.
And there’s Hitler…
It is never necessary for the state to execute anyone. There are indeed predators, but we can protect society from them by separating them from the public via incarceration. I understand that people sometimes have to kill in defense of themselves or others, but if a person is in custody, that is sufficient.
I am a retired Marine, and although I never had to kill anyone, for which I am very grateful, I was ready to be deployed to combat if it was necessary to defend our Constitution and country. But I am clear on the distinction between that, individual defense, and execution by a government.
This is a personal issue for me. My nine-year-old grandson was murdered in 2013, and there was some disagreement within the family when it came to the sentencing of his killer. Some of the family wanted the death penalty. I could not rationalize setting aside the principle just because in this case it was personal, so I argued for life imprisonment instead. While I believe that the murderer is one of those predators and can never be safely allowed to reenter society, I also believe that executing him would have been an evil that would not have been justified by the evil he had committed.
If we were really a civilized country, there would be no death penalty in the U.S. It's a stain on our national soul.
I am very sorry that you lost your grandson. Grandsons are a wonderful gift (as are granddaughters). I am also very impressed that you have been able to maintain your sanity through that. I am finally learning in my old age how wrong the death penalty is, and agree that if we were civilized, there would not be a death penalty. Oh, and there would also be sane gun laws.
I'm extremely sorry that your grandson was murdered. For you to have this opinion about the person who took his life is admirable. Truthfully, I don't know if I could do that, even though I have a very strong Christian faith. I am against the death penalty but I've never lost someone in the horrendous way you lost your grandson. Continued peace to your family.
I agree with your assessment. What I can't get past, is that these killers who completely disregarded the life of another human being, are given more rights and privileges in prison than a lot of our law-abiding citizens have. I don't agree that those who have disrespected life, should have anything but basic human rights - food, water, shelter, dignity, bodily autonomy, basic medical care, etc. No, we don't torture them or abuse them, but they shouldn't be allowed to live better than the poorest families in our country, either.
Have you been inside a prison? Especially a high security prison for violent criminals. Rest assured, only the few wealthy white-collar criminals who are incarcerated are treated "better than the poorest families in our country." First and foremost, because our most valued principle is our freedom, our primary form of punishment is to take away freedom. If you have not experienced being locked in a room, or a cage, from which you cannot leave, being told when to get up and when to go to bed, what to wear, what to eat, what work to do, when to stand up and sit down. Day after day, week after week, year after year, and you have the same routine, wear the same clothes, see the same people, and worry about who is around you every moment, you don't know punishment. Murder is murder, whether at the hands of a citizen or the government. Incarceration is punishing. Period. One more thought - as some have noted in our conversation, there are people from whom, for many different reasons, we need to be protected, but, in my experience in state prisons, there are more who, frankly, need to be protected from us. Our society is set up for them to fail and be locked away.
I've spent 12 years behind bars in federal prisons. Budget cuts and for-profit prisons have led to deteriorating conditions in the prisons I've seen. Medical care and food nowadays are generally lousy, and if you need a special diet, good luck! County jails, even in liberal California, are far worse.
That "for profit" part is a lot of what is wrong with our prison system. Hell, it's a lot of what is wrong with our country.
Mr. Philosopher, please read my comments to some of the people in this blog.
Wow Ms. Davis, well said. I worked in a prison in Michigan for a couple years. You are correct in your assessment. And in your concluding sentence "Our society is set up for them to fail and be locked away." I could relate true stories about the Kinross Correctional Facility [a prison by any other name would smell as bad] which would vouch for all you have said.
I can't argue with you, having never been in prison. What you describe is how I think it should be for those who commit such violence - particularly repeated violence. I do know a murderer who was able to finish his college degree, had a complicated spinal disc surgery to alleviate his headaches, got mental health and substance abuse treatment, and was able to work out enough that his chubby, soft body became ripped. He also had three meals per day, every day... unlike a lot of the children in our country. He was a model prisoner, a white man, and incarcerated in Florida for only seven years, if that makes any difference (and is currently serving another sentence). So clearly, not all prisons are the same as you describe. We spend tens of millions to rehabilitate criminals, then the system releases them so they can violate more innocent people, because our prisons are full. I'm sorry, but I'd rather see my tax dollars supporting law-abiding, productive members of society who need help, or even reformation of our criminal justice system. I don't disagree that our society is set up for some to fail, but the fact remains that we all have choices, and we usually have chances to reform or change our behavior. We're not talking about someone who had to steal in order to feed their kids - we're talking about those who repeatedly violate lives.
Kris, we certainly do not "spend tens of millions to rehabilitate criminals then" release "them so they can violate more innocent people." We do spend tens of millions on our prison industry so we can fill criminals with overwhelming anger, burning hatred, towering rage, and a blinding urge for vengeance; then we release "them so they can violate more innocent people." Please take this as a sincere response from one who has worked in a hell hole of a prison which is euphemistically called a "Correctional Facility." I studied and taught Criminology for four decades. Many of my former students are prosecutors, judges and prison guards. Such is our system of "criminal justice."
I appreciate your insight, Gerald. I'd be interested to know your opinion of a more effective way to spend those tens of millions. Seems to me that those who commit violent crimes, carry a certain amount of anger and urge for vengeance at their core. How do we learn to mentally process that kind of rage, without acting out? Why don't all human beings avenge their anger by hurting others? At what point do we deem someone "broken" and/or "unfixable"? And what do we do with them then? I guess that's a whole 'nuther thread... Thank you.
Seems to me that a life sentence is worse than death.
However, how many poor or unhoused people are afforded free health care, free education, and three squares a day? All paid for by our taxes. I’m not condoning execution, I’m pissed I have to support the monsters jailed for life.
Ms. Jolley, have you ever thought about a system of restitution and rehabilitation? The United States of America imprisons more citizens per capita than any other country, including China and Russia yet our crime rates are not lower. They are higher in the US than in most of the industrialized modern world. For instance; Scandinavian countries imprison hardly at all, yet their crime rates are minuscule compared to the US. The much higher crime rates are in failed, third world countries. All of these countries are former colonies of the rich, powerful Western nations.
You seem to have forgotten the most important part of the story, They ARE imprisoned.
Some are, yes. Some are not. (And we should institute harsher penalties for animal abusers, since statistics show us that they are very likely to abuse human beings down the road.)
Good point.
Jim this never helps me but I am so sorry you grandson was murdered.
I hope you have had help for coping.
Now I’m going to start working with someone to help me rid myself of the PTSD because I see her the way I found her and am haunted by it.
It’s personal to me, as well, Jim. My daughter was murdered 9 years and 3 days ago.
It was a particularly heinous way to commit this murder. Her throat was cut and he placed her in the bathtub where I found her in a fetal position. He was asleep in her bed. I kicked him in the head and ribs.
When the trial came I was in a bad way. When it came to the murderer’s penalty I was vehemently against the death penalty. He sentenced to Life Imprisonment without chance for parole.
I just couldn’t and still don’t understand why we execute someone who committed murder.
Life imprisonment, without chance of parole, is what I wanted. It seemed to me anyway that punishment was preferable because they would have to go to sleep and wake up for the rest of their lives.
Sorry for your loss...
Thank you Mr. Finley. You clearly are an honorable, tolerant, courageous, clear thinking man. I could not agree with you more. You might want to read my response to Ms. Harmon above.
This is a heartbreaking reminder of the deep flaws in our justice system and the selective application of fairness. It's hard to comprehend how a life can be taken despite such overwhelming doubt, while others seem to evade accountability for far more damning actions. It's a chilling reflection of the systemic inequalities that persist, and it underscores the urgent need for reform and true justice. Thank you for shedding light on this tragic injustice.
The proof positive that these forced birthers are not pro life…
Bull's eye.
This shows that Republicans do not truly understand what pro life means. You cannot be pro life yet support a death penalty.
they don't have enough brain matter to acknowledge the connection
The Right Wing Supreme Court Justices are White Catholics while the innocent fellow executed was a Moslem Black Man. Just a couple of facts not mentioned so far.
Marcellus Williams, besides being innocent, was a Muslim and Imam of the prison where he was held. I believe his religion played a part in the governor Missouri's decison to murder Mr. Williams when the prosecutor and members of the victims family felt he was innocent.
The death penalty is vile and will inevitably result in the deaths of the innocent; although it shouldn't be applied to those who are guilty either.
I asked this in the show's chat:
"Mary is never going to answer my questions... Are Donald's supporters' brains fully developed? If a human's brain is supposedly fully developed after age 25, how can someone vote for Donald?"
Thank you, Mary. 💙
It's our consciousness that goes through the brain that's not fully developed. Our bodies, including our brains, are pretty much fully developed, but our awareness of how we are one interconnected humanity is still in process of being understood by all.
You are asking Mary to assess neurological or cognitive development of a variety of people? There are many people who support PO #1135809 (I never write or say his name - he says it enough for all of us) who are extremely intelligent and are simply using him as a frontman to do their dirty work. Leonard Leo is the mastermind behind the SCOTUS take-over because he is obsessed with his Catholic faith telling him all Americans should follow the Pope's decisions about abortion. Look him up - he planned on rescinding Roe via SCOTUS for several decades. Peter Theil, a tech billionaire, bought JD Vance and sold him to the GOP so he could influence IT regulations. It goes on and on. Power (control), money, and greed drive them - and they are smart about it. Should the FL felon ever be held accountable for his many crimes against all of us, they will simply find another frontman to fool the ignorant and uneducated into voting for them. Looks like JD is their next stooge and they have set him up to keep the curtain covering them.
I agree wholeheartedly, Katie. I would like to add -- because many people are not aware -- that not all Catholics walk lock-step with the Vatican or the Catholic political agenda. Millions of us follow the teachings of Jesus and our own conscience -- formed at home and in Catholic schools. As a matter of fact, Leonard Leo and his ilk are opposed to the current Pope because Francis is "too focused" on Gospel values. The Catholic faith has always had a strong social justice component based on the teachings of Jesus -- caring for the sick, the indigent, orphans, etc. It's a tragedy that the Catholic Church in America has become a one-note religion with JD Vance as its most embarrassing ambassador.
Thank you, Mary, for answering my question. 😀 💙 😀
https://youtu.be/MUU5kYfCvGU?t=915
I guess some brains just don’t develop a sense of compassion.
Sociopathy in Le Grande Orange : lack of empathy...
Psychotics end in death and/or restraint.
The Republican Party is a misnomer now-it’s the fascist party.
I think of, and refer to, them as the Republifascists. Abbreviated Rfs. I recently read an excellent small book titled How Fascism Works: the Politics of Us and Them by Jason Stanley. The Rfs are checking all the boxes.
Re: book. I thought to stick to eBook after an expensive visit to Barnes and Noble yesterday. Sample was so interesting I will probably order so my non book-freak husband can read it. Thank you so much for helping me as I wall myself into my house with too many books! 😜😁Seriously, thank you. 😘
You're very welcome Karen. "my house with too many books!" Obviously we are kindred spirits! And I'd guess there are a lot more like us in this group.
IMO There’s no such thing as “too many books.” As an avid reader, the feel of a book in hand is like no other.
Although I still have a lot of books floating around, I had to put almost all of them into storage when I moved into a apartment. I'm mainly on Kindle now.
I keep a large bookshelf in my bedroom because I need my books to be near me.
Unfortunately
Is Donald dyslexic? And please explain the sickness of a man who claims to want to protect women yet takes away their right to privacy over the most intimate thing that happens to their bodies, sexually assaults them, boasts about grabbing them, buries his wife in a golf course for a tax break and puts his hands on his daughter like she's some kind of date.
Carolea, he doesn't want to protect woman. Never has, never will. He's just saying that to get them to vote for him. He will say whatever it takes to get people to do what he wants.
He had Mommy issues.. She was a tough Scottish lady and Donny did not come up to her standards - his parents sent him to military high school from 13- 18 if you can imagine that in order to instil some discipline but he came out even worse. Mother only warmed up, later than never, when the Apprentice happened and he was on TV.
Wow! That's a long time for a mom to warm up to her child. From what I understand daddy was a sociopath and encouraged that behavior in donny.
He told many people he would NEVER forgive her for that. I'd believe it.
I suspect he could be dyslexic and never got treatment for it never mind no discipline from birth.
It feels like we’re just watching American democracy sink like the Titanic while the band plays on.
Except - Mary has pointed out several Democrats who are FINALLY pushing back. If onlybwe give them the majorities in Congress!
I like your connection between the Titanic/And the Band Played On by Randy Schillits.
In addition to the reasons stated in the essay, the death penalty does not accomplish anything. It's not a deterrent and it can't undo the harm the individual did. It's purpose is revenge which also accomplishes nothing lasting.
Thank you for helping me to see the death penalty more clearly. I'm still not sure I can wrap my brain around revenge, but agree completely that it doesn't accomplish anything positive.
I think like so many other things, it boils down to money
mer, could you elaborate on that? I seem to remember reading somewhere that in the end, it costs the state a lot more, what with appeals and all, to execute someone than to just keep them in prison for life. Tho I don't guarantee my memory!
I too have heard that. The appeals process is far more expensive and time consuming vs life without parole.
Yes Ms. Franjevic, under current condition you are correct.
I agree Ms. Jaeger, I said essentially the same thing above, in my response to Ms. Harmon, but not as elegantly as you. Just as an aside; I knew a Herman Jaeger in my youth. Sind sie aus Deutschland? or do you know what part of Germany your family is from?
Unequal justice: Clarence Thomas is bought and paid for. How is it that he is not charged with tax evasion for not reporting the fair market value of repetitive luxury gifts as income? His loan for the luxury RV was forgiven, but if a student loan that is forgiven must be declared as income. As a former fed I was required to report the fair market value of gifts and if there was the appearance of a conflict I had to recuse myself from even perceived conflicts of interests. This does not seem to apply to Clarence Thomas.
My heart is broken.